Mailing List lml@lancaironline.net Message #61280
From: N20087 <n20087@yahoo.com>
Sender: <marv@lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: 320/360 Hydraulic Pressure Switch
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 07:58:53 -0500
To: <lml@lancaironline.net>
This is a very important topic for all of us.  A gear failure is certainly an expensive and likely dangerous situation in any Lancair.  While building this was an area I paid a great deal of attention to since I had witnessed hang ups while swinging the gear (140 times!)

I guess I was fortunate in a way that I did see these hang ups and set about eliminating as many of the failure modes that I could nail down.  I think what flushed out many of my problems were due to the fact that i had the asymmetric spool installed the wrong way and the pump had sat for at least 3 years in oil without any cycling which led to what I think we're weak O rings

I swapped the spool orientation and I was still able to demonstrate hangups albeit a good deal less.

So, my next step was to read all of the related posts (shout out Chris for the great drawings and description of how the pump is supposed to work) on LML and gather all of the drawings for the pump mechanism and then get on the horn with the manufacturer.  My experience was that there is very little detailed institutional knowledge remaining in Parker about the Lancair application. So after describing the system in detail to a seasoned tech I took their advice and installed a new pump body with a symmetrical spool. I could have used the original pump but I wanted to upgrade to 2x speed which works great by the way.  The spool I chose has 2 heavy rings instead of one.  

Since replacing all this equipment I have not had a single issue.  But since i had witnessed earlier hang ups that could not be cleared using the original dump valve I decided to install a three way dump that allows pressure to be relieved across both pump ports to tank.  This is a scenario that can happen due to heating and leakage (See other posts)  The three way dump was implemented in the legacy by the way.  In addition, I wanted the extra piece of my mind that if the flow of electrons into the pump motor could not be energized for any reason (total electrical failure, control circuit failure, breaker failure, solenoid failure, motor failure, porting issue inside the pump) that I would be guarantied the gear would fall and lock. (make sure you test the emergency dump system once a month or so, friction is a nasty thing that can suddenly appear for one reason or another)

By the way on a lighter but related note.  Last week I flew a trip of about an hour or so with my foot on the rudder because I could not keep the ball caged.  I thought I lost my rudder tab.  On inspection I noticed the set screw for the inner gear door valve was missing.  Emm well that explains that, problem solved plane now flys straight!

Tom




Sent from my iPad

On Mar 6, 2012, at 2:02 PM, "Wolfgang" <Wolfgang@MiCom.net> wrote:

It's a matter of cost effectiveness. I'm still waiting for positive evidence of what exactly is causing the failure so your fix can be validated.
Again, I have come up with a fix that WILL fix that problem . . . for less than what it costs to "fix" the pump, not to mention down time . . . assuming that springs and vibration is what's causing the problem. But you have said that vibration can't do that ? ?
 
Your "fix" could be the answer but there is no way to know for sure what is inside a particular pump without a dissection because part numbers are not reliable.
 
I'm thinking the springs are the culprit but that needs to be demonstrated. The springs with the help of vibration are the only thing that I can think of that can move the spindle off it's end position against O-ring friction. I'm thinking that no springs and maybe harder O-rings could be the answer. That scenario makes sense to me.
 
You have the test rig you made up so why don't you simulate the supposed problem and implement the supposed fix and document for all what the "correct" answer is ?
Let us know if your approach WILL fix the problem.
 
I have already done that with my electric module.
 
Assuming the pump modification is a valid fix,
which is more cost effective, remove, dissect, re-assemble, replace the pump
or simply add the electric module using it's push-on connectors ?
 
Wolfgang
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2012 8:21 AM
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: 320/360 Hydraulic Pressure Switch

Wolfgang,
If a mechanic were to install a new cylinder on my plane using incorrect rings that subsequently led to oil consumption of 2 qt/hr, I could theoretically design a system that refills the sump to assure I don’t run out of oil during long flights.  The more customary approach would be to remove the cylinder and install the correct rings.
The ‘problem’ here is not that oil needs to be replenished.  The problem is the installation of incorrect parts.  The ‘fix’ is not to add a system to keep the sump replenished.  The fix is to use the correct rings.
Chris Zavatson
N91CZ
360std
 
 
From: Wolfgang <Wolfgang@MiCom.net>
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2012 4:01 PM
Subject: [LML] Re: 320/360 Hydraulic Pressure Switch


Chris,
 
Life is complicated enough so when I fly, I like to enjoy it. Being a slave to the system like a cog in a flying machine is not my idea of "enjoyment". Don't get me wrong, I like getting into technicals up to my eyebrows, but I prefer to do that at my choosing, not while tending to a malfunction in flight. That's why I cane up with the gear module.
 
After you detailed the presence of springs in the pump to help center the spool and popets, I see that my original supposition that the spool is coming off it's end position is confirmed. It looks like the springs are in fact, capable of overcoming the friction of the O-rings. You keep measuring the forces in G's but that does not give us an actual force measurement that is what the springs are operating against.
 
It remains that some pump installations have the problem of the spool not maintaining the required position for safe flight operations. You have come up with many details that go toward esplaining the problem and a possible fix (take out the springs). I have come up with a module that WILL fix that problem.
 
Wolfgang
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 7:54 AM
Subject: [LML] Re: 320/360 Hydraulic Pressure Switch

Wolfgang,
 
It is a sad day when removing a pump from the aircraft is too much effort to investigate an anomaly.
 
Wolfgang wrote:<<We would all like to get at the root cause of the problem but, as yet, that hasn't happened. Likely because it's too much work to track down the actual cause and fix it. …>>
 
As aircraft owners we are responsible for knowing the configuration of the aircraft systems.  If something is out of the ordinary, investigate.  We know a lot about what the configuration should be and how it works and behaves.  We also know of configurations that do not work.  You may very well be holding the key to a new, as of yet, unidentified failure mode, but we may never know.
 
Wolfgang wrote: <<So far we only have a good plausible theory missing only demonstratable proof.>>
 
If my tire has a flat and I see a nail sticking through the side wall, I am rather confident in assuming the nail was the source of my leak.  Likewise, if I open up a lock-up prone pump and find return springs, I will have a high degree of confidence I have found the source of the problem.  Could there be a second cause?  Possibly, but as of yet, none have been documented.
 
Wolfgang wrote:<<…original suspicion of the spool coming off it's end point (with the help of springs and airframe vibration) is in fact what's causing the problem.>>
 
Springs definitely - that is what they were designed to do.  Oildyne started adding springs to center the spool to the Legacy pump in ~2003.  Our system will eventually fail if these springs are installed. Fortunately the vast majority of our pumps do not have them.  If you have springs installed, simply remove them.
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