X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 16:36:47 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from nm36-vm3.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com ([72.30.238.139] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.4) with SMTP id 5413802 for lml@lancaironline.net; Fri, 24 Feb 2012 14:13:56 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=72.30.238.139; envelope-from=chris_zavatson@yahoo.com Received: from [98.139.212.144] by nm36.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Feb 2012 19:13:19 -0000 Received: from [98.139.212.247] by tm1.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Feb 2012 19:13:19 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1056.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Feb 2012 19:13:19 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 637575.39637.bm@omp1056.mail.bf1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 62515 invoked by uid 60001); 24 Feb 2012 19:13:19 -0000 DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=La8orAQyd1duYyQ07ulJk5P3FpjRrQHONOpUMRJk3RKnSJfhz3DD7APcamDcHltLZ8NTf8h+IAtbREQUev7DD6uw6hgF4tpsGQsYVd7CxSD4v7JA0RTdwFpUWMb41xq0FXd8lUE7T6H97BqZqPrW7onm/cy/sakDQw18NzA87H4=; X-YMail-OSG: FVY6KTgVM1nnHN47WrPd1xWaLqhP_skobYNQ.Op2liksdkq Lxy6.P_3w5qO7yjOC81FzCKCg_yUB1LQUIMYyx0XWjHQ0V8K6uiCSCVIp5ec aNTNxq6.hGYgUW.wA0H5xwx.ICk2xrtPQDmS1lTSJkG._RkNteHK2HK7YZwj gvaC.Mt6aR.L8_Ob24iDSoggTRFIe0nHsJQRHt.rZzDt3kDvXQnm.e_psQZf SG_y779cV6iiGWupARKb8djUJFPvQHpHyPTADRBXHak3CrXEKc9MpWMEyCx5 RGTZ0_jg3xiL7E6Rw6H6s0Y5pmuXyqdW5LTFfS3uGhSt6v.LaEILYhI8itUs oewuL6Hm6odwhgkbk92eednvX16gBpsLhJ8ozOIkc4yykZl7o54TLQXU6glH GxD0ngnjJoCWjEFv.ps5A8BJfU0LzU0H.T9hTIU1cambDyQkUelWbGVkDMSv spqSsheKVEhs4dt1UqVuKS2IgAbxiMtARd4vdtOrkB90zMvGZyTkMT7WFD2T dRTAahLSSiSbcbmSnCTLDA8zXrc.gnwhJuVLMgOSkbUyTk0nSEWqdV4VxJ59 31XkV3M6uJntBOA.LDi13.S7QoJGXSwtnjgOB7p0EuxvgPZckJfkb6sPP5DE KqhjArPoVe_j.6behIU3MpGS95i7wb2Tjd4DdeRUzpOq0pPiJ1Q8.hd5OeOP XBnMUJ0Ph_cT40GX4dxssNJVuGtah4pDYAY60.omUcCPXFjvBABw_reBLi.h .IWgxKRvxvkxhF2_tqgFcmre75Z48Q71OF09AIwwPhcTBUhqMQv8MOpsODBD ZVbfwOE4k0TOgb8udqvpQp6lThtXNPTTqwMME55HnPwTcNY..anfns_k..yc v7isAs0VyxR8tWZODYrqi1FYaxbEQDWlUbNTNulzE2qQ5dKWUo3hgsywNpwK pQMtz7vLx Received: from [12.130.164.194] by web160402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 24 Feb 2012 11:13:19 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.117.340979 References: X-Original-Message-ID: <1330110799.55628.YahooMailNeo@web160402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> X-Original-Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 11:13:19 -0800 (PST) From: Chris Zavatson Reply-To: Chris Zavatson Subject: Re: [LML] Re: 320/360 Hydraulic Pressure Switch X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-492277813-562396542-1330110799=:55628" ---492277813-562396542-1330110799=:55628 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wolfgang,=0AI think you missed the point of my last post.=C2=A0 I was descr= ibing the benefits of having momentary switches Angier suggested=C2=A0to ju= mper across the pressure switches.=C2=A0 The three examples cited are not i= n any way related to hydraulic lock-up nor are they addressed by your modul= e.=C2=A0 Designing another circuit to detect, identify=C2=A0and properly re= spond to=C2=A0component failures is a tad complex. =C2=A0The pressure switc= h failure I described is a perfect example. =C2=A0In those situations, havi= ng more information along with more options available to the pilot is a goo= d thing?=0A=C2=A0=0ARegarding the pumps Lancair currently sells, both Oildy= ne and Lancair have already acknowledged that the pump currently sold can l= ock up when used in a stock 320/360.=C2=A0 The reason for not offering the = proper pump configuration=C2=A0for the 320/360 is purely financial -=C2=A0v= ery low volume.=C2=A0 Lancair did suggest that they could include a warning= regarding the lock up potential each time they ship a pump as a replacemen= t for a 320/360.=C2=A0 This leaves the aircraft owner in an awkward positio= n.=C2=A0 The ironic thing is that a properly configured pump can be obtaine= d directly from a Parker distributor for much less.=0AMy concern with misco= nfigured pumps trickling out into the fleet is that it will eventually catc= h pilots unaware of the technical issues off-guard.=0A=0AChris Zavatson=0AN= 91CZ=0A360std=0Awww.N91CZ.net=0A=0AFrom: Wolfgang =0ATo= : lml@lancaironline.net =0ASent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 9:36 AM=0ASub= ject: [LML] Re: 320/360 Hydraulic Pressure Switch=0A=0AWe can keep this up = for the next year but I believe talking it to death will not fix the proble= m. My preference is to have a system that takes care of itself. You seem to= want to be "involved" in the anomalies of flight. If most people wanted to= be "involved", we wouldn't have things like FADEC's and auto pilots. The m= odule I provide can help keep flight a bit more self sufficient and safer. = If you could convince Oildyne and Lancair that they have a problem with the= pumps as used in Lancairs, and fix the problem, then more power to you and= the Lancair owners. But in the mean time. I still like my gear module.=0A= =C2=A0=0AWolfgang=0A=C2=A0=0A----- Original Message ----- =0A>From: Chris Z= avatson =0A>To: lml@lancaironline.net =0A>Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 = 9:01 AM=0A>Subject: Re: [LML] Re: 320/360 Hydraulic Pressure Switch=0A>=0A>= =0A>" . . . you can only override one pressure switch at a time or overload= the system.=0A>You need one switch each for the up and down. In the event = of a problem you have to make sure you push the right switch"...=0A>=C2=A0= =0A>Overload what exactly?=C2=A0 The gear selector determines which pressur= e switch is powered.=C2=A0 If you jumper across an unpowered switch, nothin= g happens.=C2=A0 =0A>While I do=C2=A0not advocate putting in switches to ma= sk a pump problem that should really be investigated and=C2=A0fixed at the = source, momentary switches have other benefits.=C2=A0 =0A>=C2=A0=0A>1.=C2= =A0 Checking the relief valve settings in the pump.=C2=A0 By holding down t= he switch, one can see the relief valve setting of the pump.=0A>=0A>2.=C2= =A0=C2=A0Back-up for=C2=A0a failed pressure switch.=C2=A0 This was more com= mon with the VEP switches, but current version is not immune.=C2=A0=0A>3.= =C2=A0 Recharging the system on demand - The hysteresis loop on the pressur= e switches is quite large.=C2=A0 The gear can start to sag before the press= ure switch recharges the system.=C2=A0 This is=C2=A0more of an=C2=A0issue f= or the Outback Gear due to the higher aerodynamic loads pulling on the gear= .=C2=A0=0A>=C2=A0=0A>With=C2=A0automation and complexity come new failure m= odes.=C2=A0=C2=A0Give the pilot enough information about the state of the a= ircraft systems to figure out what happened and enough controls to solve th= e problem.=0A>Last summer when the high=C2=A0pressure switch went out, the = pump shut off before the gear was all the way up.=C2=A0 Higher than normal = air noise was the first clue.=C2=A0 A quick look at the pressure gauges rev= ealed the high side at only 800 psi.=C2=A0 =C2=A0The momentary switch pulle= d the gear=C2=A0the rest of=C2=A0the way up.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Examination of the= pressure switch uncovered intermittent electrical=C2=A0contact within the = switch when pressurized.=C2=A0=0A>=C2=A0=0A>Chris Zavatson=0A>N91CZ=0A>360s= td=0A>www.N91CZ.net=0A>=C2=A0=0A>=C2=A0=0A>From: Wolfgang =0A>To: lml@lancaironline.net =0A>Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 4:58 A= M=0A>Subject: [LML] Re: 320/360 Hydraulic Pressure Switch=0A>Yes, that woul= d be easy . . . except . . . you can only override one pressure switch at a= time or overload the system.You need one switch each for the up and down. = In the event of a problem you have to make sure you push the right switch.I= f you come up with some more complicated wiring, you could make it work wit= h only one switch for both up and down but you still have to push the butto= n if something isn't working as required.. . . or . . . you could put in a = completely automatic system . . .Wolfgang----- Original Message ----- From:= "Greenbacks, UnLtd." To: Sent: Fr= iday, February 17, 2012 1:07 PMSubject: Re:320/360 Hydraulic Pressure Switc= hSeems to me the simplest and least expensive option would be to install a = momentary on switch in the cockpit to override and close the open pressure = switches.Just my 2 cents.Angier AmesN3ZQ --For archives and unsub http://ma= il.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html=0ATODAY(Beta) =E2=80=A2 Powered= by Yahoo! =0AObama re-election swag is big business=0AThe 2012 campaign is= boosting its coffers with an online store filled with Joe mugs and first l= ady pins.=0APrivacy Policy ---492277813-562396542-1330110799=:55628 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<= SPAN style=3D"RIGHT: auto" id=3Dyiv2110874590yui_3_2_0_15_132997463468765>W= olfgang,
I think you missed the point of my last post.  I was describing the b= enefits of having momentary switches Angier s= uggested to jumper across the pressure switches.  The three examp= les cited are not in any way related to hydraulic lock-up nor are they addr= essed by your module.  Designing another circuit to detect, identify and properly respond to component failures is a tad com= plex.  The pressure switch failure I described is a perfect example. &= nbsp;In those situations, having more information along with more options a= vailable to the pilot is a good thing?
 
Regarding the pumps Lancair currently sells, b= oth Oildyne and Lancair have already acknowledged that the pump currently sold can loc= k up when used in a stock 320/360.  The reason for not offering the pr= oper pump configuration for= the 320/360 is purely financial - very low volume.  Lancair did = suggest that they could include a warning regarding the lock up potential e= ach time they ship a pump as a replacement for a 320/360.  This leaves= the aircraft owner in an awkward position.  The ironic thing is that a properly configured= pump can be obtained directly from a Parker distributor for much less.
My concern with misconfigured pumps trickling = out into the fleet is that it will eventually catch pilots unaware of the t= echnical issues off-guard.

Chris Zavatson
N91CZ
360std

From: Wolfgang <Wolf= gang@MiCom.net>
To: lml@lancaironline.net
<= SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2= 012 9:36 AM
Subject: [LM= L] Re: 320/360 Hydraulic Pressure Switch
We can keep this up for the next year but = I believe talking it to death will not fix the problem. My preference is to= have a system that takes care of itself. You seem to want to be "involved"= in the anomalies of flight. If most people wanted to be "involved", we wou= ldn't have things like FADEC's and auto pilots. The module I provide can he= lp keep flight a bit more self sufficient and safer. If you could convince = Oildyne and Lancair that they have a problem with the pumps as used in Lanc= airs, and fix the problem, then more power to you and the Lancair owners. B= ut in the mean time. I still like my gear module.
 
Wolfgang
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 9:0= 1 AM
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: 320/360 Hydra= ulic Pressure Switch

" . . . you can only override one pressure switch at a time or o= verload the system.
You need one switch each for the up and down. In the= event of a problem you have to make sure you push the right switch"...
 
Overload what exactly?  The gear selector determines which = pressure switch is powered.  If you jumper across an unpowered switch, nothing happens. 
While I do not advocate putting in switches to mask a pump = problem that should really be investigated and fixed at the source, mo= mentary switches have other benefits. 
 
1.  Checking the relief valve settings in the pump.  B= y holding down the switch, one can see the relief valve setting of the pump= .
2.  Back-up for a failed pressure switch.  This wa= s more common with the VEP switches, but current version is not immune. 
3.  Recharging the system on demand - The hysteresis loop o= n the pressure switches is quite large.  The gear can start to sag bef= ore the pressure swi= tch recharges the system.  This is more of an issue for the = Outback Gear due to the higher aerodynamic loads pulling on the gear. =
 
With automation and complexity come new failure modes. = ; Give the pilot enough information about the state of the aircraft sy= stems to figure out what happened and enough controls to solve the problem.=
Last summer when the high pressure switch went out, the pum= p shut off before the gear was all the way up.  Higher than normal air= noise was the first clue.  A quick look at the pressure gauges reveal= ed the high side at only 800 psi.   The momentary switch pulled t= he gear the rest of the way up.   Examination of the pr= essure switch uncovered intermittent electrical = ;contact within the switch when pressurized. 
 
Chris Zavatson
N91CZ
360std
 
 
From: Wolfgang <Wolfgang@MiCom.net>
To: lml@= lancaironline.net
Sent:= Monday, February 20, 2012 4:58 AM
Subject: [LML] Re: 320/360 Hydraulic Pressure Switch
Yes, that would be easy . . . except . . . you can only overr= ide one pressure switch at a time or overload the system.You need one switch each for = the up and down. In the event of a problem you have to make sure you push t= he right switch.If you come up with some more complicated wiring, you = could make it work with only one switch for both up and down but you still = have to push the button if something isn't working as required.. . . o= r . . . you could put in a completely automatic system . . .Wolfg= ang----- Original Message ----- From: "Greenbacks, UnLtd." <N4ZQ@VERIZON.NET<= /A>>To: <lml@lancaironline.net>= Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 1:07 PMSubject: Re:320/360 Hydrau= lic Pressure SwitchSeems to me the simplest and least expens= ive option would be to install a momentary on switch in the cockpit to over= ride and close the open pressure switches.Just my 2 cents.Angier AmesN3ZQ --For archives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/list= s/lml/List.html
=
TODAY(Beta) =E2=80=A2 Powered by Yaho= o!=20
Obama re-election swag is big businessThe 2012 campaign is boosting its coffers with an online store filled with= Joe mugs and first lady pins.
<= /DIV>
---492277813-562396542-1330110799=:55628--