X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 08:05:46 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from mail-qw0-f52.google.com ([209.85.216.52] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.4) with ESMTPS id 5411376 for lml@lancaironline.net; Thu, 23 Feb 2012 05:56:25 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.216.52; envelope-from=bakercdb@gmail.com Received: by qafi31 with SMTP id i31so1227699qaf.4 for ; Thu, 23 Feb 2012 02:55:48 -0800 (PST) X-Original-Return-Path: Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of bakercdb@gmail.com designates 10.229.137.137 as permitted sender) client-ip=10.229.137.137; Authentication-Results: mr.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of bakercdb@gmail.com designates 10.229.137.137 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=bakercdb@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=bakercdb@gmail.com Received: from mr.google.com ([10.229.137.137]) by 10.229.137.137 with SMTP id w9mr734273qct.16.1329994548744 (num_hops = 1); Thu, 23 Feb 2012 02:55:48 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.137.137 with SMTP id w9mr621782qct.16.1329994548571; Thu, 23 Feb 2012 02:55:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.229.230.81 with HTTP; Thu, 23 Feb 2012 02:55:48 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: X-Original-Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 10:55:48 +0000 X-Original-Message-ID: Subject: L2K oil under belly - air oil separator traps and foibles From: Clark Baker X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00235452f5d89eed9404b99f7c34 --00235452f5d89eed9404b99f7c34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I had an interesting experience that provides another data point to Fred's very interesting note below. I have a Barrett IO550N (I had Barrett take a new TCM engine and build it to their specs, with a 10/1 compression). I also have the Aerochia cowling, cowl flaps, cowl air exits (replaced the stock exits-fuselage bottom), and my design plenum. I initially plumbed the breather into the exhaust tailpipe (at a 90degree angle, flush with the inside of the tailpipe). Flying at lower altitudes only ( for break in), I noticed a higher than expected oil consumption. When parked on the ground, the left tailpipe (where the breather exited) was oily. But, as I was in the first 50hrs of flight, I wanted to see if the consumption stabilized. But, as I started flying higher, oil consumption picked up notably. I teed a manometer into the breather tube, about 18" from the exit. I got readings of approximately Minus 3" H2O with the cowl flaps Open, and Positive 3" H20 with the cowl flaps Closed. (note that the pressure inside the cowling increases approximately 3x with the cowl flaps closed. From the research I did (not exhaustive), these pressure/vacuum readings appeared to be acceptable. On my first long trip at 17,500, I lost more than 4qts of oil over 4 hours, a stunning increase over previous lower altitude trips. I tested again on a shorter leg at 17,500, and some similar loss rates. I have the Aerochia large sump, and normally fill to the original 6qt level on the dipstick, which is about 10 qts of oil). The engine checked out fine, and had superb compression. I changed the breather to a more conventional tube running down the firewall, and ending at the cowl air exit (tube cut at a 45d angle, with the open slash facing backwards). I also added the Andair Air/Oil separator, Andair catch can (captured oil goes to the catch can, then drains overboard if it fills up). I then did a 12 hour trip, with half of the time at 6,500, and half at 17,500. Oil consumption was nominal for the trip, and far lower than the best I had seen before). Pressure in the breather tube measured around 0"/4-5" H2O with the cowl flaps open/closed. Issued seems resolved (further testing on hold for a bit). Regards, Clark Baker Legacy 85hrs TT On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 5:24 AM, Frederick Moreno < frederickmoreno@bigpond.com> wrote: > I found It critical to have a sloped downward run for the oil drain > from the separator to wherever it is going. > > I question whether or not the valve cover is low enough given the limited > height available in the cowl. > > I have an AirWolf unit (no great shakes, I had to fuss with it a lot to > get it to work), and it drains down to the left rear push rod tube in which > is welded a T section to accept the hose from the separator. Until I got > about 3-4 inches of drop with minimal bends and a 45 degree downward > angle, I found oil pooling in the separator until it got full, then the > gas stream carried the oil overboard. Once you shut down, oil drains out > slowly and when you inspect, no problem. Very tricky. > > Here is the trick with the IO-550. Late model Continentals have 7 bolts > holding the cylinders while earlier units had 6. Adding bolts reduced > room for crankcase vent hole. So the current design has a 1/2 inch vent > hole exiting the crankcase horizontally at the crank centerline to the > left and discharging into the oil fill port which is a casting that bolts > to the crankcase. The gas discharges from the 1/2 inch hole tangentially > into the fill port which is about 1.5 inches diameter thus creating a > little cyclone that separates droplets from gas. Droplets hit wall, run > down, then down the dipstick hole into the sump while gas goes up and then > out the breather, 3/4 inch diameter. Get a flash light and a step stool, > peer down the oil fill port, and you can see what I mean. It is hard to > see, but persist and get an education. > > This means that the pressure drop arising from the gas spinning in > the cyclone must be allowed for. It is not much, only inches of water, > maybe less. But because of the cyclone in the oil fill port, the pressure > in the add-on air/oil separator at the end of the 3/4 inch vent line > is LESS than the pressure in the crankcase or valve cover or push rod tube > all of which are effectively at the pressure of the crankcase/sump. > > You can probably now see the problem. The oil flowing downhill out of > the air/oil separator must overcome the cyclone pressure drop by virtue of > gravity and the greater density of the oil compared to air. If the gravity > drop is insufficient, the gas flows *up the oil drain hose* into the > separator, oil pools in the separator, and then when it gets full, the > gas bubbles through the oil and carries it overboard. > > Further trap. If the oil in the sump gets *below the bottom if the > dipstick tube* additional problems can occur. Remember that the engine > has 2-3 quarts in circulation and draining back to the pan when it is > running, so operational oil level is below static oil level, particularly > when cold and oil is thick. I had an old Toyota truck with a straight six > diesel. On cold mornings once started and warming, the low oil level > warning light would come on even though the pan was initially full because > the thick diesel oil pooled in the valve cover because it could not drain > fast enough when cold. The pan would empty and the low level light (float > operated) would come on. Once warm, no problems. > > If you uncover the bottom of the dipstick tube due to low pan level, then > gas runs up the dipstick tube and will not let oil drain downward from the > cyclone to the pan. The cyclone in the oil fill port now fills with oil > which can not drain down the dipstick tube until it gets deep in the > cyclone. Oil is carried out with the gas stream into the separator which > overloads and you have a dirty belly, possibly gained in the first minutes > of flight (maybe during run up?) until the oil heats and the pan level > rises. > > Answer: keep the oil level UP to prevent loss of oil. > > Related: "Everybody knows" that when you fill the engine near to capacity > you blow oil overboard. But if you look at how the oil pan is separated > from the spinning crankshaft (the oil in the pan can not even "see" the > crankshaft except through a few narrow slots way overhead), it becomes > unclear what mechanism is at work to cause the oil loss. I wrote Mike > Busch with this question. He replied that after thinking about it, he did > not understand the mechanism either, and would research. No answer yet. > > So here is a case where "Everybody knows" but in fact nobody knows > anything at all. No explanation invoking simple physics has come > forward. All ideas welcome. > > Fred Moreno > > > > --00235452f5d89eed9404b99f7c34 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I had an interesting experience that provides another data point to Fred= 9;s very interesting note below.
I have a Barrett IO550N (I had Barrett= take a new TCM engine and build it to their specs, with a 10/1 compression= ).
I also have the Aerochia cowling, cowl flaps, cowl air exits (replaced= the stock exits-fuselage bottom), and my design plenum.

I initially plumbed the breather into the exhaust tailpipe (at a 90d= egree angle, flush with the inside of the tailpipe).
Flying at lower altitudes only ( for break in), I noticed a higher tha= n expected oil consumption. =A0When parked on the ground, the left tailpipe= (where the breather exited) was oily. =A0But, as I was in the first 50hrs = of flight, I wanted to see if the=A0consumption stabilized. =A0

But, as I started flying higher, oil consumption picked= up=A0notably. =A0I teed a manometer into the breather tube, about 18"= from the exit. =A0I got readings of approximately=A0Minus 3" H2O with= the cowl flaps Open, and Positive 3" H20 with the cowl flaps Closed. = (note that the pressure inside the cowling increases approximately 3x with = the cowl flaps closed. =A0From the research I did (not exhaustive), these p= ressure/vacuum readings appeared to be acceptable.

On my first long trip at 17,500, I lost more than= 4qts of oil over 4 hours, a stunning increase over previous lower altitude= trips. I tested again on a shorter leg at 17,500, and some similar loss ra= tes. =A0I have the Aerochia large sump, and normally fill to the original 6= qt level on the dipstick, which is about 10 qts of oil). =A0The engine chec= ked out fine, and had superb compression.

I changed the breather to a more conventional tube runn= ing down the firewall, and ending at the cowl air exit (tube cut at a 45d a= ngle, with the open slash facing backwards). =A0I also added the Andair Air= /Oil separator, Andair catch can (captured oil goes to the catch can, then = drains overboard if it fills up).

I then did a 12 hour trip, with half of the time at 6,5= 00, and half at 17,500. =A0Oil consumption was nominal for the trip, and fa= r lower than the best I had seen before). =A0Pressure in the breather tube = measured around 0"/4-5" H2O with the cowl flaps open/closed.

Issued seems resolved (further testing on hold for a bi= t). =A0

Regards,
Clark Baker
L= egacy 85hrs TT






On Thu, Feb 23, 20= 12 at 5:24 AM, Frederick Moreno <frederickmoreno@bigpond.com> wrote:=
I=A0found It critical to=A0have a sloped downward run for the oil drai= n from the separator to wherever it is going.=A0
=A0
I=A0question whether or not the valve cover is low enough given the li= mited height available in the cowl.=A0
=A0
I have an=A0 AirWolf unit (no=A0great shakes, I had to fuss with it a = lot to get it to work), and it drains down to the=A0left rear=A0push rod tu= be in which is welded a T section to accept the hose from the separator.=A0= =A0Until I got about 3-4 inches of=A0 drop with minimal bends and a=A0 45 d= egree downward angle, I found oil pooling in the=A0 separator until it=A0go= t full, then the gas=A0 stream carried the oil overboard.=A0 Once you shut = down, oil drains out slowly and when you inspect, no problem.=A0=A0 Very tr= icky.
=A0
Here is the trick with the IO-550.=A0 Late model Continentals have 7 b= olts holding the cylinders while earlier units had 6.=A0=A0 Adding bolts re= duced room for crankcase vent hole.=A0 So the current design has a=A01/2 in= ch vent hole exiting the crankcase=A0 horizontally at the=A0 crank centerli= ne to the left and discharging into the oil fill port which is a casting=A0= that bolts to the=A0crankcase.=A0 The=A0gas discharges from the 1/2 inch h= ole tangentially into the fill port which is about 1.5 inches diameter=A0 t= hus creating a little cyclone that separates droplets from gas.=A0 Droplets= hit wall, run down, then down the dipstick hole into the sump while gas go= es up and then out the breather, 3/4 inch diameter.=A0 Get a flash light an= d a step stool, peer down the oil fill port, and=A0you can see what I mean.= =A0 It is hard to see, but persist and get an education.
=A0
This means that the pressure drop arising from the gas spinning in the= =A0cyclone must be allowed for.=A0 It is not much, only inches of water, ma= ybe less.=A0 But because of the cyclone in the oil fill port, the pressure = in the add-on air/oil separator at the end of the=A0 3/4 inch vent line is= =A0LESS than the pressure in the crankcase or valve cover or push rod tube = all of which are effectively at the pressure of=A0the crankcase/sump.=A0
=A0
You can probably now see the problem.=A0 The=A0 oil flowing downhill o= ut of the air/oil separator must=A0overcome the cyclone pressure drop by vi= rtue of gravity and the greater density of the oil compared to=A0air.=A0 If= the gravity drop is insufficient, the gas flows up the oil drain hose=A0into the separator, oil pools in the=A0 separator, and then when it ge= ts full,=A0 the gas bubbles through the oil and carries it overboard.=A0
=A0
Further trap.=A0 If the oil in the sump=A0gets below the bottom if = the dipstick tube additional problems can=A0 occur.=A0=A0=A0Remember th= at the engine has=A0 2-3 quarts in circulation=A0and draining back to the= =A0pan when it is running, so operational oil level is below static oil lev= el, particularly when cold and oil is thick.=A0 I had an old Toyota truck w= ith a straight six diesel. On cold mornings once started and warming, the l= ow oil level warning light would come on even though the pan was initially = full because the thick diesel oil pooled in the valve cover because it coul= d not drain fast enough when cold.=A0=A0 The pan would empty and the low le= vel light (float operated) would come on. Once warm, no problems.=A0
=A0
If you uncover the=A0bottom of the dipstick tube due to low pan level,= then gas runs up the dipstick tube and will=A0 not let oil drain downward = from the cyclone to the pan.=A0 The cyclone in the oil fill=A0port=A0now fi= lls with oil which can not drain down the dipstick tube until=A0it gets dee= p in the cyclone.=A0 Oil=A0is carried out with the gas stream into the=A0 s= eparator which overloads and you have a dirty belly, possibly gained in the= first minutes of flight (maybe during run up?) until the oil=A0heats and t= he pan level rises.
=A0
Answer: keep the oil level UP to prevent loss of oil.=A0
=A0
Related: "Everybody knows" that when you fill the engine nea= r to capacity you blow oil overboard.=A0 But if you look at how=A0 the oil = pan is=A0separated from the spinning crankshaft (the oil in the pan can not= even "see" the crankshaft except through=A0a few narrow slots wa= y overhead), it becomes unclear what mechanism is at work to cause the oil = loss.=A0 I=A0wrote Mike Busch with this question.=A0 He replied that after = thinking about it, he did not understand the=A0 mechanism either, and would= research.=A0 No answer yet.=A0
=A0
So here is a case where=A0 "Everybody knows" but in=A0 fact = nobody knows anything at all.=A0=A0 No=A0 explanation invoking simple physi= cs has come forward.=A0 All ideas welcome.=A0
=A0
Fred Moreno
=A0
=A0
=A0
--00235452f5d89eed9404b99f7c34--