X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 13:24:25 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from imr-ma02.mx.aol.com ([64.12.206.40] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.10) with ESMTP id 4574898 for lml@lancaironline.net; Thu, 11 Nov 2010 07:23:37 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.12.206.40; envelope-from=Sky2high@aol.com Received: from imo-da01.mx.aol.com (imo-da01.mx.aol.com [205.188.169.199]) by imr-ma02.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id oABCMeC3004645 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2010 07:22:40 -0500 Received: from Sky2high@aol.com by imo-da01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v42.9.) id q.d38.749191c3 (55739) for ; Thu, 11 Nov 2010 07:22:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from magic-m27.mail.aol.com (magic-m27.mail.aol.com [172.20.22.200]) by cia-md04.mx.aol.com (v129.5) with ESMTP id MAILCIAMD046-d9bb4cdbe00d35c; Thu, 11 Nov 2010 07:22:37 -0500 From: Sky2high@aol.com X-Original-Message-ID: <481d.5a9710a9.3a0d3a0d@aol.com> X-Original-Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 07:22:37 EST Subject: Re: [LML] 360 flap failure (Relay Failure?) X-Original-To: lml@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_481d.5a9710a9.3a0d3a0d_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 9.5 sub 5400 X-AOL-IP: 24.15.17.119 X-Spam-Flag:NO X-AOL-SENDER: Sky2high@aol.com --part1_481d.5a9710a9.3a0d3a0d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom, You have provided an important message. As I read it I could not immediately recall where the flap motor breaker was located in the breaker stack (third one down on the main bus). I am not sure that I would have been quick enough to pull the breaker before the electrical stop was passed. I didn't like the hokey directions in the 320 construction manual so I wired my system to hard mounted relay sockets and I use high quality plug-in relays obtained in 1995 from Radio Shack. I haven't looked under the cover yet, but I may have also protected the contacts. In any event they (the relays) have been working since then and I probably twiddle (an electro-technical term) with my flaps more than most pilots. For today, I am safe! I now know how to recognize runaway flaps and what to do to stop them. Uh, tomorrow depends on memory retention and recall. Scott Krueger In a message dated 11/10/2010 6:50:15 A.M. Central Standard Time, dudewanarace@yahoo.com writes: So I'm on downwind, select a touch of flaps on my momentary flap down switch, and I soon find the flaps are still extending. Pushing the flaps up button does nothing. They continue past the limit switch until the flap motor hits the mechanical limit and pops the breaker. From the cockpit I could look directly down at the ground where the flaps normally are. Not to mention the fact that it felt like a massive speed brake. I was able to land with very little pitch up authority left. This all happened in about, oh.. 25 seconds. The real bitch of it was this. Get it back to the hanger, reset the flap motor breaker, select flaps up and everything works. They are back to obeying their limit switches like normal. I probably ran those things up and down 50 times and couldn't get it to fail again. Checked all the wiring, couldn't find a problem. Until... I caught it. The down flap relay fused and got stuck on, thereby bypassing the limit switches, and pretty much everything else, only being stopped by the flap motor blowing the breaker. Once it cooled down the relay would release and return to normal operation. So, even if the relay is wired correctly, and works as designed sometimes, doesn't mean it will on short final. Relays get old, like everything else. If I were you, you might consider new relays. (if your airplane has them I guess) Tom _www.N54SG.com_ (http://www.n54sg.com/) _www.CorePanels.com_ (http://www.corepanels.com/) --part1_481d.5a9710a9.3a0d3a0d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Tom,
 
You have provided an important message.  As I read it I could no= t=20 immediately recall where the flap motor breaker was located in the breaker= =20 stack (third one down on the main bus).  I am not sure that I=20 would have been quick enough to pull the breaker before the elec= trical=20 stop was passed.
 
I didn't like the hokey directions in the 320 construction manua= l so I=20 wired my system to hard mounted relay sockets and I use high quality= =20 plug-in relays obtained in 1995 from Radio Shack.  I haven'= t=20 looked under the cover yet, but I may have also protected the=20 contacts.  In any event they (the relays) have been working since the= n and=20 I probably twiddle (an electro-technical term) with my flaps more than mos= t=20 pilots.
 
For today, I am safe!  I now know how to recognize runaway flaps= and=20 what to do to stop them.  Uh, tomorrow depends on memory retention an= d=20 recall.
 
Scott Krueger
 
In a message dated 11/10/2010 6:50:15 A.M. Central Standard Time,=20 dudewanarace@yahoo.com writes:
So I'm on downwind, select a touch of flaps on my momentary flap do= wn=20 switch, and I soon find the flaps are still extending.  Pushing the= flaps=20 up button does nothing.  They continue past the limit switch until= the=20 flap motor hits the mechanical limit and pops the breaker.  From th= e=20 cockpit I could look directly down at the ground where the flaps normall= y=20 are.  Not to mention the fact that it felt like a massive speed=20 brake.  I was able to land with very little pitch up authority=20 left.  This all happened in about, oh.. 25 seconds.
 
The real bitch of it was this.  Get it back to the hanger, res= et the=20 flap motor breaker, select flaps up and everything works.  They are= back=20 to obeying their limit switches like normal.  I probably ran those= things=20 up and down 50 times and couldn't get it to fail again.  Checked al= l the=20 wiring, couldn't find a problem.  Until...   I caught=20 it.   The down flap relay fused and got stuck on, thereby bypa= ssing=20 the limit switches, and pretty much everything else, only being stopped= by the=20 flap motor blowing the breaker.  Once it cooled down the relay woul= d=20 release and return to normal operation.
 
So, even if the relay is wired correctly, and works as designed=20 sometimes, doesn't mean it will on short final.  Relays get= old,=20 like everything else.  If I were you, you might consider new relays= . (if=20 your airplane has them I guess)
 
Tom
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