X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 14:41:20 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from web111407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com ([67.195.15.168] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.2) with SMTP id 4104528 for lml@lancaironline.net; Sat, 30 Jan 2010 01:50:32 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=67.195.15.168; envelope-from=randylsnarr@yahoo.com Received: (qmail 16970 invoked by uid 60001); 30 Jan 2010 06:49:56 -0000 DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=v5VrH08Tvimmw1cJeFUovzsUdo16WWNka3YmkPttyhtbnA0kNvBCJg+6d5ssrGHiw5T+wmAULlPS+BHR6m9APC1aJcweg0trcjKFv8djJxSjt9cgzWLai7zVCPQyZS3zRCJ0JPI934xgZ7lDRyE6A0tHx/pMhK7+kcFZGwu6o5s=; X-Original-Message-ID: <89199.16759.qm@web111407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: 9hAWCdUVM1laVk6zoHqzu6sUmMtprs_gQ3HHVZxjDjsGoqBxTIdzzLgx331oSS_Qn6QM3fyXMlqfQ5wFHekUUoQUcGkC7.IhkkOQ167I8LPdMVE7BOAATwbuoghcRotJWqwO7Hl6xVF3dSmLIBd3PfAc15hirLzGqBhSicxtkaQMoLAIEdXX2Ht9gbXsuTinO5JZR6lpTWwBMvtQcY.Ce1.gIo5eOAnTbei9gIvnRety6q.bFSDA4Xwl5JEJYdMBzGa4GsNwzYhIDvdZkDuajXHjrqlly8fQiiQkfII89iAot2P1ncXOvCAJmuZv9jVW804W49vsg3ZzeoF67qsvmpiagEsoZljtrIRSK0aDGsCZdQd9dRWBLemP3mK5m.yeRQ-- Received: from [76.8.220.18] by web111407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 29 Jan 2010 22:49:55 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailClassic/9.1.10 YahooMailWebService/0.8.100.260964 X-Original-Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 22:49:55 -0800 (PST) From: randy snarr Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Engine out gear down Issue/The procedure! This was a wake up call for me... X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List X-Original-Cc: Mark Patey In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-182567983-1264834195=:16759" --0-182567983-1264834195=:16759 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Michael, Good points. My point was meant for the LNC2 crowd. I don't think the IV has as much lan= ding drag (gear, flaps) is higher on those airplanes with gear doors and op= en gear wells in the wings.=20 My point is that the LNC2 has a reasonable glide clean. My airplane with fu= ll flaps and gear extension and windmilling 3 blade propeller with flat TO = pitch and no power creates enough drag that without power, you need a 1500 = fpm decent to maintain 85 kts. In that config at 85 knots you can not round= out without power. At that airspeed, when I pull back on the stick, the ai= rspeed drops off a cliff=A0 before I can get parallel to the ground.=20 In my opinion, the LNC2=A0 when being landed with a dead engine, high=0Afla= p settings and gear extension should be avoided until the very=0Alast momen= ts of the landing and it would be very useful to have an extra 10 -15 knots= of energy at that moment to trade whilst extending both gear and flaps in = those last seconds. Again, in my airplane, that extra 10 or 15 knots disapp= ears by the time the gear and flaps are simultaneously dropped and are shal= lowing the decent near the ground and keeps racing for the stall speed so a= t that point I need to be putting it down before it stops flying.=20 Has any of this come up in the HPAT training? Randy Snarr N694RS --- On Wed, 1/27/10, Michael Newman wrote: From: Michael Newman Subject: [LML] Re: Engine out gear down Issue/The procedure! This was a wak= e up call for me... To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Wednesday, January 27, 2010, 4:52 PM =0A=0A=0A =0A =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AI am a LOBO instructor. I own and fly= a Lancair IV-P. =0A=0AI am also a sailplane instructor. =0A=0A =A0 =0A=0AT= his discussion reminds me of one in the sailplane community=0Atalking about= deploying full spoilers and being able to flare properly. It was=0Athoroug= hly debunked there as it should be here. =0A=0A =A0 =0A=0AThe issue is carr= ying enough energy in the form of airspeed to=0Aarrest the rate of descent = without going below the stall speed. =0A=0A =A0 =0A=0AThere is no question = in my mind that the IV-P with gear down,=0Aflaps down, engine stopped and s= poilers fully extended can carry enough energy=0Ato arrest the rate of desc= ent (flare). 120 knots will be more than enough. I=0Ahave landed my IV-P wi= th full spoilers, gear and flaps down. 95 knots is plenty=0Aof airspeed to = arrest the descent in this configuration with the engine as=0Apulled back a= s I can get it.=A0 I doubt a truly dead engine will add as much=0Amore drag= as the full spoilers. =0A=0A =A0 =0A=0AGliding at 120 knots with a stall s= peed is in the range of 75=0Aknots is a differential of 45 knots. This is e= nough to climb a few hundred feet=0Amuch less arrest the rate of descent. W= ork out the physics and you can see how=0Amuch altitude you gain for conver= ting this much horizontal speed to vertical=0Aspeed. In sailplanes we expec= t about an=A0 800 foot altitude gain in a pull=0Aup from 135 knots to 60 kn= ots. Possibly a =A0surprise to people here is that=0Aa Lancair will not be = much different. It is energy conversion not drag that=0Amatters. =0A=0A =A0= =0A=0AOne thing discussed in the these emails is adding gear, flaps,=0Aspo= ilers late in the approach just before touchdown. I think that making these= =0Aconfiguration changes late in the approach is a recipe for disaster. A 4= 5 knot=0Aairspeed margin is likely not enough energy to overcome the config= uration=0Achange and still flare properly. I think this is the point Randy = is trying to=0Amake, but, it is not clear in his discussion. =0A=0A =A0 =0A= =0AAfter an engine failure my suggestion is to establish a stable=0Adescent= at a constant airspeed of 100 to 120 knots (best glide or slightly=0Aabove= it), =A0constant configuration and then flare normally upon reaching=0Athe= ground. Put the gear and flaps down if you have time (height) to establish= a=0Astable descent after that. If not leave them alone. You can use the fl= aps for=0Aglide path control with the caveat that you should not retract th= em in the=0Afinal 300 feet of descent. (Extending them further is fine.) = =0A=0A =A0 =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AFrom: Bill Kennedy=0A[mailto:bill_kennedy_3@ho= tmail.com]=20 =0ASent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 5:47 AM =0ATo: lml@lancaironline.net =0ASubject: RE: [LML] Engine out gear down Issue/The procedure! This was a= =0Awake up call for me... =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A =A0 =0A=0AI've had two occasio= ns to land my large=0Atail LNC2 without engine power, plus lots of idle pow= er practice landings. I've=0Anever had any trouble with the round out. I th= ink my speed was 80KIAS on the=0Areal engine outs, and slower on the practi= ce landings. I don't understand why=0Aanyone would use over 100 KIAS for a = forced landing. 1.3 X Vs0 aught to give=0Aany Lancair plenty of energy to r= ound out in any power setting. What am I=0Amissing? =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A= =0ATo: lml@lancaironline.net =0ADate: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 11:10:28 -0500 =0AFrom: randylsnarr@yahoo.com =0ASubject: [LML] Engine out gear down Issue/The procedure! This was a wake= up=0Acall for me... =0A=0A=0A =0A =0A All/ Gary, =0A Good points,=20 =0A The extra 15 - 20 knots is what you give away dropping gear and flaps= =0A transitioning from best glide profile to landing configuration with a = dead=0A engine.=20 =0A =20 =0A My point is that when you are done gliding (at 120mph)=A0 and ready to= =0A touch down, the extra energy is necessary if you intend to drop gear a= nd=0A flaps to touchdown . =0A If a landing is being attempted with no gear, 100 or even 80-90 mph is= good=0A to ground effect, bleed off speed and land on the belly. I am wit= h you there.=0A =20 =0A =20 =0A If you have your 120 mph glide and drop the gear at 500 or 1000 feet A= GL you=0A are not going to be able to arrest the decent at the ground.=A0 = I was=0A shocked to find this out and almost broke my airplane learning th= is lesson.=0A It is absolutely true and it scares me that many, including = myself are=0A cruising slow (100kts) and low (pattern altitude) dragging g= ear and flaps=0A with partial power. =0A Loss of power at that poing is much much worse than I and ( I believe)= =A0=0A most of us realize!!! =0A =20 =0A Before understanding this a little better, in an engine out situation,= =A0=0A I would have set up for best glide at around 120 mph, find a reason= able spot=0A to land, drop the gear at 500- 1000 ft AGL and put it down. T= his works for a=0A Cessna 150 or 172. For a Lancair the first part is righ= t the second is DEADLY=0A WRONG....Everyone should try this at a very safe= altitude. It is shocking! I=0A had no idea this was the case!!! =0A =20 =0A Set up best glide at 120 MPH or 106 kts 1000 feet above your imaginary= ground=0A level with absolutely no power (flat idle), descend to 500 ft a= bove your=0A imaginary ground level and drop the gear (flaps if you like) = . You are now=0A slowed to 85-90 mph dragging the wheels and descending at= 1000 feet per=0A minute or more. Do this to your imaginary ground level, = try to flair the=0A airplane and you blow right through it in a 1000 to 15= 00 feet per minute=0A decent!!! No kidding. Try and be aggressive with bac= k elevator to make it=0A flair and you will stall and could easily turn it= over. TRY THIS ONLY AT A=0A VERY SAFE ALTITUDE! We are so used to a littl= e power on approach that we=0A really never experience this until a real e= mergency happens. Remember it=0A is dramatically worse with a totally dead= engine as you have a huge increase=0A in prop drag.=20 =0A =20 =0A I believe the procedure should be best glide speed ( I like Gary's 120= MPH)=0A and then pickup the extra 15-20 knots to short final and drop the= gear and=0A flaps and touch down in the last 10 seconds before the gear/ = flap drag bleed=0A off the extra 10 -15 knots. You do not want to fly any = longer than 10 -15=0A seconds with a dead engine and gear extended. Not be= cause the airplane=0A wont fly that way, it will. It is because after thos= e 15-20- extra knots are=0A gone, you can not arrest the decent at the gro= und. That was totally foreign=0A to my thinking before this. With the gear= down you can not descend steep=0A enough to pick up enough speed to flair= at the ground. Yikes! =0A =20 =0A A local Legacy driver and friend explained what he learned when initia= lly=0A practicing engine out landings in the Legacy. =0A He started his simulations with 160 kts IAS downwind in the pattern (g= ear and=0A flaps up). After 4 attempts pulling the power and trying to fly= different=0A variations of tight patterns dropping gear and flaps in vari= ous places he=0A came to the following conclusion:=20 =0A The only way to get his Legacy on the ground safely from a=0A complet= e engine failure in the pattern was to IMMEDIATELY turn and dive for=0A th= e end of the runway holding around 135 knots and dropping the gear/flaps=0A= only at short final. He said it feels like a very radical move but it is = the=0A only way. He has thousands of hours of HP airplane time and is very= =0A experience in the Legacy. He admitted he grotesquely over estimated th= e=0A airplanes ability to make the runway with NO power. He went on=0A to= say that few realize the dramatic flight characteristic change from low=0A= power to no power.=A0 You loose the small amount of thrust and add a TON= =0A of drag.=A0 Each time he turned sooner and tighter. He also said he wo= uld=0A have bought it if he had to do it for real had he not practiced it = several=0A times to truly understand what it takes to get it down. The sto= ry spooked me=0A enough to prove it was true in my 235/320 and he is absol= utely right.=20 =0A =20 =0A This is important, our Lancair's absolutely with not round out at the = bottom=0A with no running engine with gear and flaps down, again unless yo= u have the=0A precious 15-20 knots extra energy used at the very last mome= nts as it goes=0A quickly with wheels down. You trade that extra energy fo= r the flair. No extra=0A speed no flair... =0A =20 =0A I believe all high performance airplanes share this behavior to one de= gree or=0A another. I also strongly believe engine out landings can be don= e successfully=0A if we better understand how our airplanes fly with a dea= d engine and execute=0A the right emergency procedures.=20 =0A =20 =0A IMHO... =0A Sorry for ranting... =0A =20 =0A I would very much like to hear from the LOBO fliers on this subject. I= am=0A sure this has come up in the training. =0A =20 =0A Randy Snarr =0A N694RS =0A N235/320 =0A =20 =0A =20 =0A --- On Sun, 1/24/10, Gary Edwards =0A wrote: = =0A =20 =0A From: Gary Edwards =0A Subject: [LML] Re: Airspeed sensing switch /Auto gear extension / Engi= ne out=0A gear down Issue! =0A To: lml@lancaironline.net =0A Date: Sunday, January 24, 2010, 4:07 PM =0A =0A =0A =0A That is go= od=0A info=A0for everyone.=A0=A0 =0A =0A =0A =A0 =0A =0A =0A However= , in my=0A 235, 120 MPH=A0is the best glide=0A speed.=A0 That equates to = 104 knots.=A0 I do not want to be going any=0A faster=A0in event of an off= field landing, and most likely, I will leave=0A the gear up in that situa= tion.=A0 On a runway, I would use the gear, but=0A unless it is a long run= way, I will also keep the speed not in excess.=A0=0A Any speed above=A0abo= ut 80 MPH results is a=A0bounced landing and=0A significant nose high atti= tude with the chance of dragging the rudder, and=0A wasted runway behind m= e. =0A =0A =0A =A0 =0A =0A =0A Also, a=0A thought in reference to wh= en to drop the gear.=A0 7 to 10 seconds is fine=0A if the plane still has = electrical.=A0 But if the dump valve has to be=0A used, that will not be e= nough time to get the gear down, especially if the=0A pilot has to crab th= e plane one or two directions to lock each or both mains=0A in place.=A0 T= he pilot is going to be a "busy beaver" in the=0A last 30 seconds of fligh= t. =0A =0A =0A =A0 =0A =0A =0A Gary Edwards =0A =0A =0A LNC2 =0A = =0A =0A =0A -----=0A Original Message ----- =0A =0A =0A From: randy= snarr =0A =0A =0A To: lml@lancaironline.net =0A =0A =0A Sent: Satu= rday, January=0A 23, 2010 12:20 PM =0A =0A =0A Subject: [LML] Airspeed= =0A sensing switch /Auto gear extension / Engine out gear down Issue! =0A = =0A =0A =A0 =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A Terrence, =0A Mine is the same as yours only no auto gear down. Only a warning lig= ht and=0A horn for low speed and gear up. =0A =20 =0A I would seriously consider changing your set up for the following re= ason.=0A This is a bit of a long winded response but it brings up a vita= lly=0A important point for the group. =0A =20 =0A =A0Gear and flaps down too early with a dead engine will have disast= erous=0A consequences every time. =0A =20 =0A With loss of power, gear and flaps should stay up keeping speed abov= e 120=0A kts IAS until the last seconds before landing. My gear down is = a count to=0A 7. Everyone should know how many seconds it takes to get i= t down and locked=0A as you will only have one shot to get it right in a= n emergency. You wont'=0A be able to do that with your gear set up. =0A =20 =0A Many Lancair drivers (myself included until recently) have no idea t= hat=0A these how bad these airplanes glide dragging the gear with a wind= milling=0A propeller. =0A =20 =0A That is a deadly mistake. Dragging gear and flaps, you need a steep = nose=0A down attitude to keep the airspeed at a safe speed. Unfortunatel= y, in that=0A regime you can not flair the airplane. When you try to fla= ir without a=0A little power these airplanes just slow down and hit the = ground. The=0A situation is much worse if you are heavy.=20 =0A =20 =0A This is very important for every Lancair driver to understand, =0A =20 =0A With a dead engine if the gear and flaps are down too early (anythin= g=0A sooner than 10 seconds before ground contact) the incident will mos= t likely=0A have a tragic outcome. This is absolutely true. =0A =20 =0A I don't mean to preach but I believe we would still have some good f= riends=0A with us if we all understood this better. We recently had a fa= tal crash at=0A my field where an experienced instructor died in a 210 i= n a similar=0A circumstance which got me thinking about this. =0A = =0A =0A =0A The ONLY way to get down safely on your wheels in our= =0A airplanes is to keep and extra 15 or 20 KTS of energy (over a typica= l=0A approach) all the way to ground effect and then drop the gear and f= laps and=0A bleed off speed and touch down. That extra energy is used qu= ickly extending=0A the wheels and you will need to be touching down when= it is gone or you are=0A toast.=20 =0A This applies to me as much as anyone else.. =0A =20 =0A Randy Snarr =0A N694RS =0A =20 =0A --- On Fri, 1/22/10, Terrence O'Neill =0A w= rote: =0A =20 =0A From: Terrence O'Neill =0A Subject: [LML] Re: Airspeed sensing switch needed =0A To: lml@lancaironline.net =0A Date: Friday, January 22, 2010, 3:08 PM =0A =0A Thanks for the= info, Randy. =0A =0A I have my airspeed sensing switch set a 90 kno= ts, in the=0A gear-up circuit, so that no matter where the gear switch i= s, it can't raise=0A the gear unless the airspeed is greater than 90 kno= ts. =0A =0A =0A Same on landing. =A0I fi forget to put the gear=0A= switch to down, the gear will come down anyway at 90 knots. =0A =0A = =0A The only downside (no pun intended) is that should I=0A want t= o make a gear-su forced landing, I couldn't... and have considered=0A ad= ding a bypass into the circuit. =0A =0A =0A Any thoughts on that/ = =0A =0A =0A Terrence=A0 =0A =0A =0A L235/320 N211AL =0A = =0A =0A =A0 =0A =0A =0A =A0 =0A =0A =0A =0A = =20 =0A =20 =0A =A0 =0A =0A =A0 =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A = =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A=0A=0A =A0 =0A=0A=0A=0A =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A --0-182567983-1264834195=:16759 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Michael,
Good points.
My point was mean= t for the LNC2 crowd. I don't think the IV has as much landing drag (gear, = flaps) is higher on those airplanes with gear doors and open gear wells in = the wings.

My point is that the LNC2 has a reasonable glide clean. = My airplane with full flaps and gear extension and windmilling 3 blade prop= eller with flat TO pitch and no power creates enough drag that without powe= r, you need a 1500 fpm decent to maintain 85 kts. In that config at 85 knot= s you can not round out without power. At that airspeed, when I pull back o= n the stick, the airspeed drops off a cliff  before I can get parallel= to the ground.

In my opinion, the LNC2  when being landed wit= h a dead engine, high=0Aflap settings and gear extension should be avoided until the very=0Alast moments o= f the landing and it would be very useful to have an extra 10 -15 kn= ots of energy at that moment to trade whilst extending both gear and flaps = in those last seconds. Again, in my airplane, that extra 10 or 15 knots dis= appears by the time the gear and flaps are simultaneously dropped and are s= hallowing the decent near the ground and keeps racing for the stall speed s= o at that point I need to be putting it down before it stops flying.
Has any of this come up in the HPAT training?

Randy Snarr
N694R= S

--- On Wed, 1/27/10, Michael Newman <mnewman@dragonnorth.= com> wrote:

From: Michael Newman= <mnewman@dragonnorth.com>
Subject: [LML] Re: Engine out gear down= Issue/The procedure! This was a wake up call for me...
To: lml@lancairo= nline.net
Date: Wednesday, January 27, 2010, 4:52 PM

=0A=0A=0A =0A =0A=0A=0A=0A
=0A=0A

I am a LOBO instructor. I own and fly = a Lancair IV-P.

=0A=0A

I am also a sailplane instructor.

=0A=0A

 <= /p> =0A=0A

Th= is discussion reminds me of one in the sailplane community=0Atalking about = deploying full spoilers and being able to flare properly. It was=0Athorough= ly debunked there as it should be here.

=0A=0A

 

=0A=0A

The issue is carr= ying enough energy in the form of airspeed to=0Aarrest the rate of descent = without going below the stall speed.

=0A=0A

 

=0A=0A

There is no question= in my mind that the IV-P with gear down,=0Aflaps down, engine stopped and = spoilers fully extended can carry enough energy=0Ato arrest the rate of des= cent (flare). 120 knots will be more than enough. I=0Ahave landed my IV-P w= ith full spoilers, gear and flaps down. 95 knots is plenty=0Aof airspeed to= arrest the descent in this configuration with the engine as=0Apulled back = as I can get it.  I doubt a truly dead engine will add as much=0Amore = drag as the full spoilers.

=0A=0A

 

=0A=0A

Gliding at 120 knots with a st= all speed is in the range of 75=0Aknots is a differential of 45 knots. This= is enough to climb a few hundred feet=0Amuch less arrest the rate of desce= nt. Work out the physics and you can see how=0Amuch altitude you gain for c= onverting this much horizontal speed to vertical=0Aspeed. In sailplanes we = expect about an  800 foot altitude gain in a pull=0Aup from 135 knots = to 60 knots. Possibly a  surprise to people here is that=0Aa Lancair w= ill not be much different. It is energy conversion not drag that=0Amatters.=

=0A=0A

 

=0A=0A

One thing discussed in the these emails is adding gear, = flaps,=0Aspoilers late in the approach just before touchdown. I think that = making these=0Aconfiguration changes late in the approach is a recipe for d= isaster. A 45 knot=0Aairspeed margin is likely not enough energy to overcom= e the configuration=0Achange and still flare properly. I think this is the = point Randy is trying to=0Amake, but, it is not clear in his discussion.

=0A=0A

 

=0A=0A

After an engine failure my suggestion is to establish a sta= ble=0Adescent at a constant airspeed of 100 to 120 knots (best glide or sli= ghtly=0Aabove it),  constant configuration and then flare normally upo= n reaching=0Athe ground. Put the gear and flaps down if you have time (heig= ht) to establish a=0Astable descent after that. If not leave them alone. Yo= u can use the flaps for=0Aglide path control with the caveat that you shoul= d not retract them in the=0Afinal 300 feet of descent. (Extending them furt= her is fine.)

=0A=0A

 

=0A=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0A

From: Bill Kennedy=0A[mailto:bill_kennedy_3@hotmail.com]
=0ASent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 5:47 AM
=0ATo: lml@lancaironline.n= et
=0ASubject: RE: [LML] Engine out gear down Issue/The procedure= ! This was a=0Awake up call for me...

=0A=0A
=0A=0A
= =0A=0A

 

=0A=0A

I've had two occasions to land my = large=0Atail LNC2 without engine power, plus lots of idle power practice la= ndings. I've=0Anever had any trouble with the round out. I think my speed w= as 80KIAS on the=0Areal engine outs, and slower on the practice landings. I= don't understand why=0Aanyone would use over 100 KIAS for a forced landing= . 1.3 X Vs0 aught to give=0Aany Lancair plenty of energy to round out in an= y power setting. What am I=0Amissing?

=0A=0A
=0A=0A=0A=0A
=0A=0A

To: lml@lancaironline.net
=0ADate: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 11:10:28 -0= 500
=0AFrom: randylsnarr@yahoo.com
=0ASubject: [LML] Engine out gear = down Issue/The procedure! This was a wake up=0Acall for me...

= =0A=0A=0A =0A =0A= =0A
=0A

All/ Gary,
=0A Good points,
=0A The = extra 15 - 20 knots is what you give away dropping gear and flaps=0A trans= itioning from best glide profile to landing configuration with a dead=0A e= ngine.
=0A
=0A My point is that when you are done gliding (at 120= mph)  and ready to=0A touch down, the extra energy is necessary if yo= u intend to drop gear and=0A flaps to touchdown .
=0A If a landing is = being attempted with no gear, 100 or even 80-90 mph is good=0A to ground e= ffect, bleed off speed and land on the belly. I am with you there.=0A
= =0A
=0A If you have your 120 mph glide and drop the gear at 500 or 10= 00 feet AGL you=0A are not going to be able to arrest the decent at the= ground.  I was=0A shocked to find this out and almost broke my a= irplane learning this lesson.=0A It is absolutely true and it scares me th= at many, including myself are=0A cruising slow (100kts) and low (pattern a= ltitude) dragging gear and flaps=0A with partial power.
=0A Loss of po= wer at that poing is much much worse than I and ( I believe) =0A most= of us realize!!!
=0A
=0A Before understanding this a little bette= r, in an engine out situation, =0A I would have set up for best glide= at around 120 mph, find a reasonable spot=0A to land, drop the gear at 50= 0- 1000 ft AGL and put it down. This works for a=0A Cessna 150 or 172. For= a Lancair the first part is right the second is DEADLY=0A WRONG....Everyo= ne should try this at a very safe altitude. It is shocking! I=0A had no id= ea this was the case!!!
=0A
=0A Set up best glide at 120 MPH or 10= 6 kts 1000 feet above your imaginary ground=0A level with absolutely no po= wer (flat idle), descend to 500 ft above your=0A imaginary ground level an= d drop the gear (flaps if you like) . You are now=0A slowed to 85-90 mph d= ragging the wheels and descending at 1000 feet per=0A minute or more. Do t= his to your imaginary ground level, try to flair the=0A airplane and you b= low right through it in a 1000 to 1500 feet per minute=0A decent!!! No kid= ding. Try and be aggressive with back elevator to make it=0A flair and you= will stall and could easily turn it over. TRY THIS ONLY AT A=0A VERY SAFE= ALTITUDE! We are so used to a little power on approach that we=0A really = never experience this until a real emergency happens. Remember it=0A is= dramatically worse with a totally dead engine as you have a huge increase= =0A in prop drag.
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=0A I believe the procedure should be = best glide speed ( I like Gary's 120 MPH)=0A and then pickup the extra 15-= 20 knots to short final and drop the gear and=0A flaps and touch down in t= he last 10 seconds before the gear/ flap drag bleed=0A off the extra 10 -1= 5 knots. You do not want to fly any longer than 10 -15=0A seconds with = a dead engine and gear extended. Not because the airplane=0A wont fly = that way, it will. It is because after those 15-20- extra knots are=0A gon= e, you can not arrest the decent at the ground. That was totally foreign=0A= to my thinking before this. With the gear down you can not descend steep= =0A enough to pick up enough speed to flair at the ground. Yikes!
=0A =
=0A A local Legacy driver and friend explained what he learned when in= itially=0A practicing engine out landings in the Legacy.
=0A He starte= d his simulations with 160 kts IAS downwind in the pattern (gear and=0A fl= aps up). After 4 attempts pulling the power and trying to fly different=0A = variations of tight patterns dropping gear and flaps in various places he= =0A came to the following conclusion:
=0A The only way = to get his Legacy on the ground safely from a=0A complete engine failure i= n the pattern was to IMMEDIATELY turn and dive for=0A the end of the runwa= y holding around 135 knots and dropping the gear/flaps=0A only at short fi= nal. He said it feels like a very radical move but it is the=0A only way. = He has thousands of hours of HP airplane time and is very=0A experience in= the Legacy. He admitted he grotesquely over estimated the=0A airplanes ab= ility to make the runway with NO power. He went on=0A to say= that few realize the dramatic flight characteristic change from low=0A po= wer to no power.  You loose the small amount of thrust and add a TON= =0A of drag.  Each time he turned sooner and tighter. He also said he= would=0A have bought it if he had to do it for real had he not practiced = it several=0A times to truly understand what it takes to get it down. The = story spooked me=0A enough to prove it was true in my 235/320 and he is ab= solutely right.
=0A
=0A This is important, our Lancair's absolute= ly with not round out at the bottom=0A with no running engine with gear an= d flaps down, again unless you have the=0A precious 15-20 knots extra ener= gy used at the very last moments as it goes=0A quickly with wheels down. Y= ou trade that extra energy for the flair. No extra=0A speed no flair...=0A
=0A I believe all high performance airplanes share this behavior= to one degree or=0A another. I also strongly believe engine out landings = can be done successfully=0A if we better understand how our airplanes fly = with a dead engine and execute=0A the right emergency procedures.
=0A =
=0A IMHO...
=0A Sorry for ranting...
=0A
=0A I would ver= y much like to hear from the LOBO fliers on this subject. I am=0A sure thi= s has come up in the training.
=0A
=0A Randy Snarr
=0A N694RS<= br>=0A N235/320
=0A
=0A
=0A --- On Sun, 1/24/10, Gary Edw= ards <gary21sn@hotmail.com>=0A wrote:

=0A


=0A From: Gary Edwards <= ;gary21sn@hotmail.com>
=0A Subject: [LML] Re: Airspeed sensing switc= h /Auto gear extension / Engine out=0A gear down Issue!
=0A To: lml@la= ncaironline.net
=0A Date: Sunday, January 24, 2010, 4:07 PM

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T= hat is good=0A info for everyone.  

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However, in my=0A 235, 120 MPH&nb= sp;is the best glide=0A speed.  That equates to 104 k= nots.  I do not want to be going any=0A faster in event of an of= f field landing, and most likely, I will leave=0A the gear up in that situ= ation.  On a runway, I would use the gear, but=0A unless it is a long= runway, I will also keep the speed not in excess. =0A Any speed abov= e about 80 MPH results is a bounced landing and=0A significant n= ose high attitude with the chance of dragging the rudder, and=0A wasted ru= nway behind me.

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 =

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Also, a=0A thought i= n reference to when to drop the gear.  7 to 10 seconds is fine=0A if = the plane still has electrical.  But if the dump valve has to be=0A u= sed, that will not be enough time to get the gear down, especially if the= =0A pilot has to crab the plane one or two directions to lock each or both= mains=0A in place.  The pilot is going to be a "busy beaver" in the= =0A last 30 seconds of flight.

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Gary = Edwards

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LNC2 =0A

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-----=0A Original Message ----= -

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From: randy snarr

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To: lml@lancaironline.net =

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Sent:= Saturday, January=0A 23, 2010 12:20 PM

= =0A
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Subject:<= /span> [LML] Airspeed=0A sensing switch /Auto gear extens= ion / Engine out gear down Issue!

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= Terrence,
=0A Mine is the same as yours only no auto gear down. Only = a warning light and=0A horn for low speed and gear up.
=0A
=0A= I would seriously consider changing your set up for the following reaso= n.=0A This is a bit of a long winded response but it brings up a vitally= =0A important point for the group.
=0A
=0A  Gear and f= laps down too early with a dead engine will have disasterous=0A conseque= nces every time.
=0A
=0A With loss of power, gear and flaps sh= ould stay up keeping speed above 120=0A kts IAS until the last seconds b= efore landing. My gear down is a count to=0A 7. Everyone should know how= many seconds it takes to get it down and locked=0A as you will only hav= e one shot to get it right in an emergency. You wont'=0A be able to do t= hat with your gear set up.
=0A
=0A Many Lancair drivers (mysel= f included until recently) have no idea that=0A these how bad these airp= lanes glide dragging the gear with a windmilling=0A propeller.
=0A =
=0A That is a deadly mistake. Dragging gear and flaps, you need a s= teep nose=0A down attitude to keep the airspeed at a safe speed. Unfortu= nately, in that=0A regime you can not flair the airplane. When you try t= o flair without a=0A little power these airplanes just slow down and hit= the ground. The=0A situation is much worse if you are heavy.
=0A =
=0A This is very important for every Lancair driver to understand,<= br>=0A
=0A With a dead engine if the gear and flaps are down t= oo early (anything=0A sooner than 10 seconds before ground contact) the = incident will most likely=0A have a tragic outcome. This is absolutely t= rue.
=0A
=0A I don't mean to preach but I believe we would= still have some good friends=0A with us if we all understood this bette= r. We recently had a fatal crash at=0A my field where an experienced ins= tructor died in a 210 in a similar=0A circumstance which got me thinking= about this.

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The ONLY way to get down safely= on your wheels in our=0A airplanes is to keep and extra 15 or 20 KTS of= energy (over a typical=0A approach) all the way to ground effect and th= en drop the gear and flaps and=0A bleed off speed and touch down. That e= xtra energy is used quickly extending=0A the wheels and you will need to= be touching down when it is gone or you are=0A toast.
=0A This a= pplies to me as much as anyone else..
=0A
=0A Randy Snarr
= =0A N694RS
=0A
=0A --- On Fri, 1/22/10, Terrence O'Neill= <troneill@charter.net>=0A wrote:

=0A


=0A From: Terrence O'N= eill <troneill@charter.net>
=0A Subject: [LML] Re: Airspeed sen= sing switch needed
=0A To: lml@lancaironline.net
=0A Date: Frid= ay, January 22, 2010, 3:08 PM

=0A
=0A =

Thanks for the info, Randy.

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I have my airspeed sensing switch set a 90 knots, i= n the=0A gear-up circuit, so that no matter where the gear switch is, it= can't raise=0A the gear unless the airspeed is greater than 90 knots. =0A

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Same on landing. =  I fi forget to put the gear=0A switch to down, the gear will come = down anyway at 90 knots.

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The only downside (no pun intended) is that should I=0A want to= make a gear-su forced landing, I couldn't... and have considered=0A add= ing a bypass into the circuit.

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Any thoughts on that/

=0A
=0A
=0A Terrence 

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L235/320 N211AL

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=0A &nbs= p;

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