X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 12:47:37 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from hrndva-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([71.74.56.122] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.2) with ESMTP id 4101302 for lml@lancaironline.net; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 20:34:11 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=71.74.56.122; envelope-from=kkellner1@new.rr.com X-Original-Return-Path: X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=1ePIQZLNtMkA:10 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=69EAbJreAAAA:8 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=DELB4ClhHiYR2Vr5d70A:9 a=nX_cowKrlUrQBPa8YdkA:7 a=IuREG4P3CYv0dZkYvb0Yj4wM9yQA:4 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=EfJqPEOeqlMA:10 a=hUswqBWy9Q8A:10 a=CjxXgO3LAAAA:8 a=0c35epoSV-1zZMhRXCEA:9 a=_aAwC7DDX42HtHBG1s4A:7 a=NkMxrA2VocHsV9yL1xSZRZJlMasA:4 a=rC2wZJ5BpNYA:10 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 65.25.237.206 Received: from [65.25.237.206] ([65.25.237.206:1882] helo=D4SSJS91) by hrndva-oedge04.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.2.39 r()) with ESMTP id 72/71-28383-F69E06B4; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 01:33:35 +0000 X-Original-Message-ID: <48624720A17A410E9FD5EF8BC20E73F5@D4SSJS91> From: "Ken" X-Original-To: , "randy snarr" References: Subject: Re: Engine out gear down Issue/The procedure! This was a wake up call for me... X-Original-Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 19:33:35 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00F7_01CA9F87.9DD14760" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5843 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00F7_01CA9F87.9DD14760 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Randy, It is my understanding that best glide on a IV is 120kts (your airplane mig= ht vary) not 120 mph. I use 120kts and rounding out to a squeaker is not a= n issue. I would agree with you that 120mph (104kts) might not leave you w= ith enough energy to arrest the sink rate. I have received training from both HPAT and LOBO and my generic engine out = practice goes something like this. Lose the power somewhere on the down wi= nd (different spots on the down wind provide different "looks"). Pull the = prop (reduces drag) and pitch for 120kts. Turn base at a spot that, based = on the winds, I estimate will allow me to touch down between 1/3 down the r= unway and mid field. Once I know I can glide to mid field I drop the gear = and add pitch down to still maintain 120kts. If I need to scrub more altit= ude I drop flaps as needed, a little at a time because you can't take'm bac= k, but always pitch for 120kts. This allows for a normal level off to a no= rmal landing attitude resulting in a landing just like any other. Good luck and enjoy your flying. Ken Kellner IV-P 14LK ----- Original Message -----=20 From: randy snarr=20 To: lml@lancaironline.net=20 Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 10:10 AM Subject: Engine out gear down Issue/The procedure! This was a wake up cal= l for me... All/ Gary, Good points,=20 The extra 15 - 20 knots is what you give away dropping gear and fla= ps transitioning from best glide profile to landing configuration with a de= ad engine.=20 My point is that when you are done gliding (at 120mph) and ready t= o touch down, the extra energy is necessary if you intend to drop gear and = flaps to touchdown . If a landing is being attempted with no gear, 100 or even 80-90 mph= is good to ground effect, bleed off speed and land on the belly. I am with= you there.=20 If you have your 120 mph glide and drop the gear at 500 or 1000 fee= t AGL you are not going to be able to arrest the decent at the ground. I w= as shocked to find this out and almost broke my airplane learning this less= on. It is absolutely true and it scares me that many, including myself are = cruising slow (100kts) and low (pattern altitude) dragging gear and flaps w= ith partial power. Loss of power at that poing is much much worse than I and ( I belie= ve) most of us realize!!! Before understanding this a little better, in an engine out situati= on, I would have set up for best glide at around 120 mph, find a reasonabl= e spot to land, drop the gear at 500- 1000 ft AGL and put it down. This wor= ks for a Cessna 150 or 172. For a Lancair the first part is right the secon= d is DEADLY WRONG....Everyone should try this at a very safe altitude. It i= s shocking! I had no idea this was the case!!! Set up best glide at 120 MPH or 106 kts 1000 feet above your imagin= ary ground level with absolutely no power (flat idle), descend to 500 ft ab= ove your imaginary ground level and drop the gear (flaps if you like) . You= are now slowed to 85-90 mph dragging the wheels and descending at 1000 fee= t per minute or more. Do this to your imaginary ground level, try to flair = the airplane and you blow right through it in a 1000 to 1500 feet per minut= e decent!!! No kidding. Try and be aggressive with back elevator to make it= flair and you will stall and could easily turn it over. TRY THIS ONLY AT A= VERY SAFE ALTITUDE! We are so used to a little power on approach that we r= eally never experience this until a real emergency happens. Remember it is = dramatically worse with a totally dead engine as you have a huge increase i= n prop drag.=20 I believe the procedure should be best glide speed ( I like Gary's = 120 MPH) and then pickup the extra 15-20 knots to short final and drop the = gear and flaps and touch down in the last 10 seconds before the gear/ flap = drag bleed off the extra 10 -15 knots. You do not want to fly any longer th= an 10 -15 seconds with a dead engine and gear extended. Not because the air= plane wont fly that way, it will. It is because after those 15-20- extra kn= ots are gone, you can not arrest the decent at the ground. That was totally= foreign to my thinking before this. With the gear down you can not descend= steep enough to pick up enough speed to flair at the ground. Yikes! A local Legacy driver and friend explained what he learned when ini= tially practicing engine out landings in the Legacy. He started his simulations with 160 kts IAS downwind in the pattern= (gear and flaps up). After 4 attempts pulling the power and trying to fly = different variations of tight patterns dropping gear and flaps in various p= laces he came to the following conclusion:=20 The only way to get his Legacy on the ground safely from a complete= engine failure in the pattern was to IMMEDIATELY turn and dive for the end= of the runway holding around 135 knots and dropping the gear/flaps only at= short final. He said it feels like a very radical move but it is the only = way. He has thousands of hours of HP airplane time and is very experience i= n the Legacy. He admitted he grotesquely over estimated the airplanes abili= ty to make the runway with NO power. He went on to say that few realize the= dramatic flight characteristic change from low power to no power. You loo= se the small amount of thrust and add a TON of drag. Each time he turned s= ooner and tighter. He also said he would have bought it if he had to do it = for real had he not practiced it several times to truly understand what it = takes to get it down. The story spooked me enough to prove it was true in m= y 235/320 and he is absolutely right.=20 This is important, our Lancair's absolutely with not round out at t= he bottom with no running engine with gear and flaps down, again unless you= have the precious 15-20 knots extra energy used at the very last moments a= s it goes quickly with wheels down. You trade that extra energy for the fla= ir. No extra speed no flair... I believe all high performance airplanes share this behavior to one= degree or another. I also strongly believe engine out landings can be done= successfully if we better understand how our airplanes fly with a dead eng= ine and execute the right emergency procedures.=20 IMHO... Sorry for ranting... I would very much like to hear from the LOBO fliers on this subject= I am sure this has come up in the training. Randy Snarr N694RS N235/320 --- On Sun, 1/24/10, Gary Edwards wrote: From: Gary Edwards Subject: [LML] Re: Airspeed sensing switch /Auto gear extension /= Engine out gear down Issue! To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Sunday, January 24, 2010, 4:07 PM That is good info for everyone. =20 However, in my 235, 120 MPH is the best glide speed. That equate= s to 104 knots.. I do not want to be going any faster in event of an off f= ield landing, and most likely, I will leave the gear up in that situation. = On a runway, I would use the gear, but unless it is a long runway, I will = also keep the speed not in excess. Any speed above about 80 MPH results is= a bounced landing and significant nose high attitude with the chance of dr= agging the rudder, and wasted runway behind me. Also, a thought in reference to when to drop the gear. 7 to 10 s= econds is fine if the plane still has electrical. But if the dump valve ha= s to be used, that will not be enough time to get the gear down, especially= if the pilot has to crab the plane one or two directions to lock each or b= oth mains in place. The pilot is going to be a "busy beaver" in the last 3= 0 seconds of flight. Gary Edwards LNC2 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: randy snarr=20 To: lml@lancaironline.net=20 Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 12:20 PM Subject: [LML] Airspeed sensing switch /Auto gear extension / E= ngine out gear down Issue! Terrence, Mine is the same as yours only no auto gear down. Only a = warning light and horn for low speed and gear up. I would seriously consider changing your set up for the f= ollowing reason. This is a bit of a long winded response but it brings up a= vitally important point for the group. Gear and flaps down too early with a dead engine will ha= ve disasterous consequences every time. With loss of power, gear and flaps should stay up keeping= speed above 120 kts IAS until the last seconds before landing. My gear dow= n is a count to 7. Everyone should know how many seconds it takes to get it= down and locked as you will only have one shot to get it right in an emerg= ency. You wont' be able to do that with your gear set up. Many Lancair drivers (myself included until recently) hav= e no idea that these how bad these airplanes glide dragging the gear with a= windmilling propeller. That is a deadly mistake. Dragging gear and flaps, you ne= ed a steep nose down attitude to keep the airspeed at a safe speed. Unfortu= nately, in that regime you can not flair the airplane. When you try to flai= r without a little power these airplanes just slow down and hit the ground.= The situation is much worse if you are heavy.=20 This is very important for every Lancair driver to unders= tand, With a dead engine if the gear and flaps are down too ear= ly (anything sooner than 10 seconds before ground contact) the incident wil= l most likely have a tragic outcome. This is absolutely true. I don't mean to preach but I believe we would still have = some good friends with us if we all understood this better. We recently had= a fatal crash at my field where an experienced instructor died in a 210 in= a similar circumstance which got me thinking about this.=20 -------------------------------------------------------------- The ONLY way to get down safely on your wheels in our air= planes is to keep and extra 15 or 20 KTS of energy (over a typical approach= ) all the way to ground effect and then drop the gear and flaps and bleed o= ff speed and touch down. That extra energy is used quickly extending the wh= eels and you will need to be touching down when it is gone or you are toast= =20 This applies to me as much as anyone else.. Randy Snarr N694RS --- On Fri, 1/22/10, Terrence O'Neill wrote: From: Terrence O'Neill Subject: [LML] Re: Airspeed sensing switch needed To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Friday, January 22, 2010, 3:08 PM Thanks for the info, Randy.=20 I have my airspeed sensing switch set a 90 knots, in th= e gear-up circuit, so that no matter where the gear switch is, it can't rai= se the gear unless the airspeed is greater than 90 knots. Same on landing. I fi forget to put the gear switch to= down, the gear will come down anyway at 90 knots. The only downside (no pun intended) is that should I wa= nt to make a gear-su forced landing, I couldn't... and have considered addi= ng a bypass into the circuit. Any thoughts on that/ Terrence=20 L235/320 N211AL =20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_00F7_01CA9F87.9DD14760 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Randy,
 
It is my understanding that best glide on a IV is 120kts (your airplan= e=20 might vary) not 120 mph.  I use 120kts and rounding out to a=20 squeaker is not an issue.  I would agree with you that 120mph=20 (104kts) might not leave you with enough energy to arrest the sink=20 rate.
 
I have received training from both HPAT and LOBO and my generic engine= out=20 practice goes something like this.  Lose the power somewhere on the do= wn=20 wind (different spots on the down wind provide different "looks").  Pu= ll=20 the prop (reduces drag) and pitch for 120kts.  Turn base at a spo= t=20 that, based on the winds, I estimate will allow me to touch down betwe= en=20 1/3 down the runway and mid field.  Once I know I can glide to mi= d=20 field I drop the gear and add pitch down to still maintain 120kts.  If= I=20 need to scrub more altitude I drop flaps as needed, a little at a time beca= use=20 you can't take'm back, but always pitch for 120kts.  This allows for= =20 a normal level off to a normal landing attitude resulting in a landing= just=20 like any other.
 
Good luck and enjoy your flying.
 
Ken Kellner
IV-P  14LK
----- Original Message -----
Fro= m:=20 ra= ndy=20 snarr
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 10= :10=20 AM
Subject: Engine out gear down Issu= e/The=20 procedure! This was a wake up call for me...

All/ Gary,
Good points,
The extra 15 - 20 kno= ts is=20 what you give away dropping gear and flaps transitioning from best = glide=20 profile to landing configuration with a dead engine.

My poi= nt is=20 that when you are done gliding (at 120mph)  and ready to touch= =20 down, the extra energy is necessary if you intend to drop gear and = flaps=20 to touchdown .
If a landing is being attempted with no gear, 100= or=20 even 80-90 mph is good to ground effect, bleed off speed and land o= n the=20 belly. I am with you there.

If you have your 120 mph glide = and=20 drop the gear at 500 or 1000 feet AGL you are not going to be able t= o=20 arrest the decent at the ground.  I was shocked to find= this=20 out and almost broke my airplane learning this lesson. It is absolu= tely=20 true and it scares me that many, including myself are cruising slow= =20 (100kts) and low (pattern altitude) dragging gear and flaps with pa= rtial=20 power.
Loss of power at that poing is much much worse than I and= ( I=20 believe)  most of us realize!!!

Before understanding th= is a=20 little better, in an engine out situation,  I would have set u= p for=20 best glide at around 120 mph, find a reasonable spot to land, drop = the=20 gear at 500- 1000 ft AGL and put it down. This works for a Cessna 1= 50 or=20 172. For a Lancair the first part is right the second is DEADLY=20 WRONG....Everyone should try this at a very safe altitude. It is=20 shocking! I had no idea this was the case!!!

Set up best gli= de at=20 120 MPH or 106 kts 1000 feet above your imaginary ground level with= =20 absolutely no power (flat idle), descend to 500 ft above your imagi= nary=20 ground level and drop the gear (flaps if you like) . You are now sl= owed=20 to 85-90 mph dragging the wheels and descending at 1000 feet per mi= nute=20 or more. Do this to your imaginary ground level, try to flair the= =20 airplane and you blow right through it in a 1000 to 1500 feet per m= inute=20 decent!!! No kidding. Try and be aggressive with back elevator to m= ake=20 it flair and you will stall and could easily turn it over. TRY THIS= ONLY=20 AT A VERY SAFE ALTITUDE! We are so used to a little power on approa= ch=20 that we really never experience this until a real emergency happens= =20 Remember it is dramatica= lly=20 worse with a totally dead engine as you have a huge increase in pro= p=20 drag.

I believe the procedure should be best glide s= peed=20 ( I like Gary's 120 MPH) and then pickup the extra 15-20 knots to s= hort=20 final and drop the gear and flaps and touch down in the last 10 sec= onds=20 before the gear/ flap drag bleed off the extra 10 -15 knots. You do not want to fly any lon= ger=20 than 10 -15 seconds with a dead engine and gear extended. No= t=20 because the airplane wont fly that way, it will. It is because afte= r=20 those 15-20- extra knots are gone, you can not arrest the decent at= the=20 ground. That was totally foreign to my thinking before this. With t= he=20 gear down you can not descend steep enough to pick up enough speed = to=20 flair at the ground. Yikes!

A local Legacy driver and friend= =20 explained what he learned when initially practicing engine out land= ings=20 in the Legacy.
He started his simulations with 160 kts IAS downw= ind=20 in the pattern (gear and flaps up). After 4 attempts pulling the po= wer=20 and trying to fly different variations of tight patterns dropping g= ear=20 and flaps in various places he came to the following conclusion: The=20 only<= /SPAN>=20 way to get his Legacy on the ground safely from a complete engine= =20 failure in the pattern was to IMMEDIATELY turn and dive for the end= of=20 the runway holding around 135 knots and dropping the gear/flaps onl= y at=20 short final. He said it feels like a very radical move but it is th= e=20 only way. He has thousands of hours of HP airplane time and is very= =20 experience in the Legacy. He admitted he grotesquely over estimated= the=20 airplanes ability to make the runway with NO p= ower.=20 He went on to say that few realize the dramatic flight characterist= ic=20 change from low power to no power.  You loose the small amount= of=20 thrust and add a TON of drag.  Each time he turned sooner and= =20 tighter. He also said he would have bought it if he had to do it fo= r=20 real had he not practiced it several times to truly understand what= it=20 takes to get it down. The story spooked me enough to prove it was t= rue=20 in my 235/320 and he is absolutely right.

This is important= , our=20 Lancair's absolutely with not round out at the bottom with no runni= ng=20 engine with gear and flaps down, again unless you have the precious= =20 15-20 knots extra energy used at the very last moments as it goes= =20 quickly with wheels down. You trade that extra energy for the flair= No=20 extra speed no flair...

I believe all high performance airpl= anes=20 share this behavior to one degree or another. I also strongly belie= ve=20 engine out landings can be done successfully if we better understan= d how=20 our airplanes fly with a dead engine and execute the right emergenc= y=20 procedures.

IMHO...
Sorry for ranting...

I would = very=20 much like to hear from the LOBO fliers on this subject. I am sure t= his=20 has come up in the training.

Randy=20 Snarr
N694RS
N235/320


--- On Sun, 1/24/10, Gary= =20 Edwards <gary21sn@hotmail.com> wrote:

From:=20 Gary Edwards <gary21sn@hotmail.com>
Subject: [LML] Re:= =20 Airspeed sensing switch /Auto gear extension / Engine out gear do= wn=20 Issue!
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Date: Sunday, January 24, = 2010,=20 4:07 PM

That is good info for everyone.  
 
However, in my 235, 120 MPH is = the=20 best glide speed.  That equates to 104 knots..  I do no= t=20 want to be going any faster in event of an off field landing= , and=20 most likely, I will leave the gear up in that situation.  On= a=20 runway, I would use the gear, but unless it is a long runway, I w= ill=20 also keep the speed not in excess.  Any speed above abo= ut 80=20 MPH results is a bounced landing and significant nose high= =20 attitude with the chance of dragging the rudder, and wasted runwa= y=20 behind me.
 
Also, a thought in reference to when to drop the gear. = 7 to=20 10 seconds is fine if the plane still has electrical.  But i= f the=20 dump valve has to be used, that will not be enough time to get th= e=20 gear down, especially if the pilot has to crab the plane one or t= wo=20 directions to lock each or both mains in place.  The pilot i= s=20 going to be a "busy beaver" in the last 30 seconds of flight.
 
Gary Edwards
LNC2
-----=20 Original Message -----
From:=20 randy = snarr=20
To:=20 lml@lancaironline.net<= /A>=20
Sent:=20 Saturday, January 23, 2010 12:20 PM Subject:=20 [LML] Airspeed sensing switch /Auto gear extension / Engine out= gear=20 down Issue!

Terrence,
Mine is the same as yours onl= y no=20 auto gear down. Only a warning light and horn for low spe= ed=20 and gear up.

I would seriously consider changing y= our=20 set up for the following reason. This is a bit of a long= =20 winded response but it brings up a vitally important poin= t for=20 the group.

 Gear and flaps down too early wit= h a=20 dead engine will have disasterous consequences every=20 time.

With loss of power, gear and flaps should st= ay up=20 keeping speed above 120 kts IAS until the last seconds be= fore=20 landing. My gear down is a count to 7. Everyone should kn= ow=20 how many seconds it takes to get it down and locked as yo= u=20 will only have one shot to get it right in an emergency. = You=20 wont' be able to do that with your gear set up.

Ma= ny=20 Lancair drivers (myself included until recently) have no = idea=20 that these how bad these airplanes glide dragging the gea= r=20 with a windmilling propeller.

That is a deadly mis= take.=20 Dragging gear and flaps, you need a steep nose down attit= ude=20 to keep the airspeed at a safe speed. Unfortunately, in t= hat=20 regime you can not flair the airplane. When you try to fl= air=20 without a little power these airplanes just slow down and= hit=20 the ground. The situation is much worse if you are heavy.= =20

This is very important for every Lancair driver t= o=20 understand,

With= a dead=20 engine if the gear and flaps are down too early (anything= =20 sooner than 10 seconds before ground contact) the inciden= t=20 will most likely have a tragic outcome. This is absolutel= y=20 true.

I don't mean to preach but I believe = we=20 would still have some good friends with us if we all=20 understood this better. We recently had a fatal crash at = my=20 field where an experienced instructor died in a 210 in a= =20 similar circumstance which got me thinking about this.
The ONLY way to get down safely on your wheels in our=20 airplanes is to keep and extra 15 or 20 KTS of energy (ov= er a=20 typical approach) all the way to ground effect and then d= rop=20 the gear and flaps and bleed off speed and touch down. Th= at=20 extra energy is used quickly extending the wheels and you= will=20 need to be touching down when it is gone or you are toast= =20
This applies to me as much as anyone else..

Ra= ndy=20 Snarr
N694RS

--- On Fri, 1/22/10, Terrence= =20 O'Neill <troneill@charter.net> wrote:
From:=20 Terrence O'Neill <troneill@charter.net>
Subjec= t:=20 [LML] Re: Airspeed sensing switch needed
To:=20 lml@lancaironline.net
Date: Friday, January 22, 2010= ,=20 3:08 PM

Thanks for the info, Randy= =20
I have my airspeed sensing switch set a 90 knots, = in=20 the gear-up circuit, so that no matter where the gear s= witch=20 is, it can't raise the gear unless the airspeed is grea= ter=20 than 90 knots.
Same on landing.  I fi forget to put the gear= =20 switch to down, the gear will come down anyway at 90=20 knots.
The only downside (no pun intended) is that should= I=20 want to make a gear-su forced landing, I couldn't... an= d=20 have considered adding a bypass into the circuit.
Any thoughts on that/
Terrence 
L235/320 N211AL




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