X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 11:58:03 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from mta31.charter.net ([216.33.127.82] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.2) with ESMTP id 4100610 for lml@lancaironline.net; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 10:06:35 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=216.33.127.82; envelope-from=troneill@charter.net Received: from imp10 ([10.20.200.15]) by mta31.charter.net (InterMail vM.7.09.02.04 201-2219-117-106-20090629) with ESMTP id <20100127150559.JXUM1847.mta31.charter.net@imp10> for ; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 10:05:59 -0500 Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([75.132.241.174]) by imp10 with smtp.charter.net id af5z1d0033mUFT705f5z7h; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 10:05:59 -0500 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=7dLHewPLR5MA:10 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=CjxXgO3LAAAA:8 a=69EAbJreAAAA:8 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=iMpAvGtygIGXk1VEiN4A:9 a=Exr8DzXN4Q_1XvesfmAA:7 a=WH3q8GOjC8ZpnQu9Obe0o9TxleMA:4 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=rC2wZJ5BpNYA:10 a=EfJqPEOeqlMA:10 a=hUswqBWy9Q8A:10 a=FllHD-Q7f7Yz-0xTxsAA:9 a=qH4iZFo4jNH3iPW4EoMA:7 a=DovtC5VrVtwz5tDYuW3ltGiNumwA:4 From: Terrence O'Neill Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-21-682235754 Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Engine out gear down Issue/The procedure! This was a wake up call for me... X-Original-Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 09:06:00 -0600 In-Reply-To: X-Original-To: "Lancair Mailing List" References: X-Original-Message-Id: <9D3A4A3C-A700-4009-B6EA-19126CAAFC50@charter.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) --Apple-Mail-21-682235754 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Bill, The most likely think missing is too forward a CG; and the next is = limited up-elevator. Other possible causes would be a lot of down flap, and/or an airspeed = indicator inaccurate in the low range causing flying slowed than = indicated. IMHO, those are the only possibilities. Once you get past the Lift = coefficient peak/plateau, you may increase the AOA but there isn't any = more lift up there. It's WHAM into the deck, just like the Navy pilots. Terrence N211L L235/320 On Jan 27, 2010, at 4:47 AM, Bill Kennedy wrote: > I've had two occasions to land my large tail LNC2 without engine = power, plus lots of idle power practice landings. I've never had any = trouble with the round out. I think my speed was 80KIAS on the real = engine outs, and slower on the practice landings. I don't understand why = anyone would use over 100 KIAS for a forced landing. 1.3 X Vs0 aught to = give any Lancair plenty of energy to round out in any power setting. = What am I missing? >=20 > To: lml@lancaironline.net > Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 11:10:28 -0500 > From: randylsnarr@yahoo.com > Subject: [LML] Engine out gear down Issue/The procedure! This was a = wake up call for me... >=20 > All/ Gary, > Good points,=20 > The extra 15 - 20 knots is what you give away dropping gear and flaps = transitioning from best glide profile to landing configuration with a = dead engine.=20 >=20 > My point is that when you are done gliding (at 120mph) and ready to = touch down, the extra energy is necessary if you intend to drop gear and = flaps to touchdown . > If a landing is being attempted with no gear, 100 or even 80-90 mph is = good to ground effect, bleed off speed and land on the belly. I am with = you there.=20 >=20 > If you have your 120 mph glide and drop the gear at 500 or 1000 feet = AGL you are not going to be able to arrest the decent at the ground. I = was shocked to find this out and almost broke my airplane learning this = lesson. It is absolutely true and it scares me that many, including = myself are cruising slow (100kts) and low (pattern altitude) dragging = gear and flaps with partial power. > Loss of power at that poing is much much worse than I and ( I believe) = most of us realize!!! >=20 > Before understanding this a little better, in an engine out situation, = I would have set up for best glide at around 120 mph, find a reasonable = spot to land, drop the gear at 500- 1000 ft AGL and put it down. This = works for a Cessna 150 or 172. For a Lancair the first part is right the = second is DEADLY WRONG....Everyone should try this at a very safe = altitude. It is shocking! I had no idea this was the case!!! >=20 > Set up best glide at 120 MPH or 106 kts 1000 feet above your imaginary = ground level with absolutely no power (flat idle), descend to 500 ft = above your imaginary ground level and drop the gear (flaps if you like) = . You are now slowed to 85-90 mph dragging the wheels and descending at = 1000 feet per minute or more. Do this to your imaginary ground level, = try to flair the airplane and you blow right through it in a 1000 to = 1500 feet per minute decent!!! No kidding. Try and be aggressive with = back elevator to make it flair and you will stall and could easily turn = it over. TRY THIS ONLY AT A VERY SAFE ALTITUDE! We are so used to a = little power on approach that we really never experience this until a = real emergency happens. Remember it is dramatically worse with a totally = dead engine as you have a huge increase in prop drag.=20 >=20 > I believe the procedure should be best glide speed ( I like Gary's 120 = MPH) and then pickup the extra 15-20 knots to short final and drop the = gear and flaps and touch down in the last 10 seconds before the gear/ = flap drag bleed off the extra 10 -15 knots. You do not want to fly any = longer than 10 -15 seconds with a dead engine and gear extended. Not = because the airplane wont fly that way, it will. It is because after = those 15-20- extra knots are gone, you can not arrest the decent at the = ground. That was totally foreign to my thinking before this. With the = gear down you can not descend steep enough to pick up enough speed to = flair at the ground. Yikes! >=20 > A local Legacy driver and friend explained what he learned when = initially practicing engine out landings in the Legacy. > He started his simulations with 160 kts IAS downwind in the pattern = (gear and flaps up). After 4 attempts pulling the power and trying to = fly different variations of tight patterns dropping gear and flaps in = various places he came to the following conclusion:=20 > The only way to get his Legacy on the ground safely from a complete = engine failure in the pattern was to IMMEDIATELY turn and dive for the = end of the runway holding around 135 knots and dropping the gear/flaps = only at short final. He said it feels like a very radical move but it is = the only way. He has thousands of hours of HP airplane time and is very = experience in the Legacy. He admitted he grotesquely over estimated the = airplanes ability to make the runway with NO power. He went on to say = that few realize the dramatic flight characteristic change from low = power to no power. You loose the small amount of thrust and add a TON = of drag. Each time he turned sooner and tighter. He also said he would = have bought it if he had to do it for real had he not practiced it = several times to truly understand what it takes to get it down. The = story spooked me enough to prove it was true in my 235/320 and he is = absolutely right.=20 >=20 > This is important, our Lancair's absolutely with not round out at the = bottom with no running engine with gear and flaps down, again unless you = have the precious 15-20 knots extra energy used at the very last moments = as it goes quickly with wheels down. You trade that extra energy for the = flair. No extra speed no flair... >=20 > I believe all high performance airplanes share this behavior to one = degree or another. I also strongly believe engine out landings can be = done successfully if we better understand how our airplanes fly with a = dead engine and execute the right emergency procedures.=20 >=20 > IMHO... > Sorry for ranting... >=20 > I would very much like to hear from the LOBO fliers on this subject. I = am sure this has come up in the training. >=20 > Randy Snarr > N694RS > N235/320 >=20 >=20 > --- On Sun, 1/24/10, Gary Edwards wrote: >=20 > From: Gary Edwards > Subject: [LML] Re: Airspeed sensing switch /Auto gear extension / = Engine out gear down Issue! > To: lml@lancaironline.net > Date: Sunday, January 24, 2010, 4:07 PM >=20 > That is good info for everyone. =20 > =20 > However, in my 235, 120 MPH is the best glide speed. That equates to = 104 knots. I do not want to be going any faster in event of an off = field landing, and most likely, I will leave the gear up in that = situation. On a runway, I would use the gear, but unless it is a long = runway, I will also keep the speed not in excess. Any speed above about = 80 MPH results is a bounced landing and significant nose high attitude = with the chance of dragging the rudder, and wasted runway behind me. > =20 > Also, a thought in reference to when to drop the gear. 7 to 10 = seconds is fine if the plane still has electrical. But if the dump = valve has to be used, that will not be enough time to get the gear down, = especially if the pilot has to crab the plane one or two directions to = lock each or both mains in place. The pilot is going to be a "busy = beaver" in the last 30 seconds of flight. > =20 > Gary Edwards > LNC2 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: randy snarr > To: lml@lancaironline.net > Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 12:20 PM > Subject: [LML] Airspeed sensing switch /Auto gear extension / Engine = out gear down Issue! >=20 > Terrence, > Mine is the same as yours only no auto gear down. Only a warning light = and horn for low speed and gear up. >=20 > I would seriously consider changing your set up for the following = reason. This is a bit of a long winded response but it brings up a = vitally important point for the group. >=20 > Gear and flaps down too early with a dead engine will have = disasterous consequences every time. >=20 > With loss of power, gear and flaps should stay up keeping speed above = 120 kts IAS until the last seconds before landing. My gear down is a = count to 7. Everyone should know how many seconds it takes to get it = down and locked as you will only have one shot to get it right in an = emergency. You wont' be able to do that with your gear set up. >=20 > Many Lancair drivers (myself included until recently) have no idea = that these how bad these airplanes glide dragging the gear with a = windmilling propeller. >=20 > That is a deadly mistake. Dragging gear and flaps, you need a steep = nose down attitude to keep the airspeed at a safe speed. Unfortunately, = in that regime you can not flair the airplane. When you try to flair = without a little power these airplanes just slow down and hit the = ground. The situation is much worse if you are heavy.=20 >=20 > This is very important for every Lancair driver to understand, >=20 > With a dead engine if the gear and flaps are down too early (anything = sooner than 10 seconds before ground contact) the incident will most = likely have a tragic outcome. This is absolutely true. >=20 > I don't mean to preach but I believe we would still have some good = friends with us if we all understood this better. We recently had a = fatal crash at my field where an experienced instructor died in a 210 in = a similar circumstance which got me thinking about this.=20 > The ONLY way to get down safely on your wheels in our airplanes is to = keep and extra 15 or 20 KTS of energy (over a typical approach) all the = way to ground effect and then drop the gear and flaps and bleed off = speed and touch down. That extra energy is used quickly extending the = wheels and you will need to be touching down when it is gone or you are = toast.=20 > This applies to me as much as anyone else.. >=20 > Randy Snarr > N694RS >=20 > --- On Fri, 1/22/10, Terrence O'Neill wrote: >=20 > From: Terrence O'Neill > Subject: [LML] Re: Airspeed sensing switch needed > To: lml@lancaironline.net > Date: Friday, January 22, 2010, 3:08 PM >=20 > Thanks for the info, Randy. > I have my airspeed sensing switch set a 90 knots, in the gear-up = circuit, so that no matter where the gear switch is, it can't raise the = gear unless the airspeed is greater than 90 knots. > Same on landing. I fi forget to put the gear switch to down, the gear = will come down anyway at 90 knots. > The only downside (no pun intended) is that should I want to make a = gear-su forced landing, I couldn't... and have considered adding a = bypass into the circuit. > Any thoughts on that/ > Terrence=20 > L235/320 N211AL >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > =20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail-21-682235754 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Bill,
The most likely think missing is too = forward a CG; and the next is limited up-elevator.
Other = possible causes would be a lot of down flap, and/or an airspeed = indicator inaccurate in the low range causing flying slowed than = indicated.
IMHO, those are the only possibilities. Once you = get past the Lift coefficient peak/plateau, you may increase the AOA but = there isn't any more lift up there. It's WHAM into the deck, just like = the Navy pilots.
Terrence N211L = L235/320

On Jan 27, 2010, at 4:47 AM, Bill = Kennedy wrote:

I've had two occasions = to land my large tail LNC2 without engine power, plus lots of idle power = practice landings. I've never had any trouble with the round out. I = think my speed was 80KIAS on the real engine outs, and slower on the = practice landings. I don't understand why anyone would use over 100 KIAS = for a forced landing. 1.3 X Vs0 aught to give any Lancair plenty of = energy to round out in any power setting. What am I missing?

To: lml@lancaironline.net
Date: = Tue, 26 Jan 2010 11:10:28 -0500
From: randylsnarr@yahoo.com
Subject= : [LML] Engine out gear down Issue/The procedure! This was a wake up = call for me...

All/ Gary,
Good points, 
The extra 15 - 20 knots = is what you give away dropping gear and flaps transitioning from best = glide profile to landing configuration with a dead engine. 

My point is that = when you are done gliding (at 120mph)  and ready to touch down, the = extra energy is necessary if you intend to drop gear and flaps to = touchdown .
If a landing is being attempted with no gear, 100 or even = 80-90 mph is good to ground effect, bleed off speed and land on the = belly. I am with you there. 

If you have your = 120 mph glide and drop the gear at 500 or 1000 feet AGL you are not going to be able to = arrest the decent at the ground.  I was shocked to find this = out and almost broke my airplane learning this lesson. It is absolutely = true and it scares me that many, including myself are cruising slow = (100kts) and low (pattern altitude) dragging gear and flaps with partial = power.
Loss of power at that poing is much much worse than I and ( I = believe)  most of us realize!!!

Before understanding this a = little better, in an engine out situation,  I would have set up for = best glide at around 120 mph, find a reasonable spot to land, drop the = gear at 500- 1000 ft AGL and put it down. This works for a Cessna 150 or = 172. For a Lancair the first part is right the second is DEADLY = WRONG....Everyone should try this at a very safe altitude. It is = shocking! I had no idea this was the case!!!

Set up best glide at = 120 MPH or 106 kts 1000 feet above your imaginary ground level with = absolutely no power (flat idle), descend to 500 ft above your imaginary = ground level and drop the gear (flaps if you like) . You are now slowed = to 85-90 mph dragging the wheels and descending at 1000 feet per minute = or more. Do this to your imaginary ground level, try to flair the = airplane and you blow right through it in a 1000 to 1500 feet per minute = decent!!! No kidding. Try and be aggressive with back elevator to make = it flair and you will stall and could easily turn it over. TRY THIS ONLY = AT A VERY SAFE ALTITUDE! We are so used to a little power on approach = that we really never experience this until a real emergency = happens. Remember it is dramatically worse = with a totally dead engine as you have a huge increase in prop = drag. 

I = believe the procedure should be best glide speed ( I like Gary's 120 = MPH) and then pickup the extra 15-20 knots to short final and drop the = gear and flaps and touch down in the last 10 seconds before the gear/ = flap drag bleed off the extra 10 -15 knots. You do not want to fly any longer = than 10 -15 seconds with a dead engine and gear extended. Not = because the airplane wont fly that way, it will. It is because after = those 15-20- extra knots are gone, you can not arrest the decent at the = ground. That was totally foreign to my thinking before this. With the = gear down you can not descend steep enough to pick up enough speed to = flair at the ground. Yikes!

A local Legacy driver and friend = explained what he learned when initially practicing engine out landings = in the Legacy.
He started his simulations with 160 kts IAS downwind = in the pattern (gear and flaps up). After 4 attempts pulling the power = and trying to fly different variations of tight patterns dropping gear = and flaps in various places he came to the following conclusion: 
The only way to get his Legacy on = the ground safely from a complete engine failure in the pattern was to = IMMEDIATELY turn and dive for the end of the runway holding around 135 = knots and dropping the gear/flaps only at short final. He said it feels = like a very radical move but it is the only way. He has thousands of = hours of HP airplane time and is very experience in the Legacy. He = admitted he grotesquely over estimated the airplanes ability to make the = runway with NO power. He went on to say = that few realize the dramatic flight characteristic change from low = power to no power.  You loose the small amount of thrust and add a = TON of drag.  Each time he turned sooner and tighter. He also said = he would have bought it if he had to do it for real had he not practiced = it several times to truly understand what it takes to get it down. The = story spooked me enough to prove it was true in my 235/320 and he is = absolutely right. 

This is important, = our Lancair's absolutely with not round out at the bottom with no = running engine with gear and flaps down, again unless you have the = precious 15-20 knots extra energy used at the very last moments as it = goes quickly with wheels down. You trade that extra energy for the = flair. No extra speed no flair...

I believe all high performance = airplanes share this behavior to one degree or another. I also strongly = believe engine out landings can be done successfully if we better = understand how our airplanes fly with a dead engine and execute the = right emergency procedures. 

IMHO...
Sorry = for ranting...

I would very much like to hear from the LOBO = fliers on this subject. I am sure this has come up in the = training.

Randy Snarr
N694RS
N235/320


--- = On Sun, 1/24/10, = Gary Edwards <gary21sn@hotmail.com><= span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> wrote:

From: Gary Edwards = <gary21sn@hotmail.com>
Subje= ct: [LML] Re: Airspeed sensing switch /Auto gear extension / Engine out = gear down Issue!
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Date: = Sunday, January 24, 2010, 4:07 PM

That is good info for = everyone.  
 
However, in my 235, = 120 MPH is the best glide speed.  That equates to 104 knots.  I do = not want to be going any faster in event of an off field landing, = and most likely, I will leave the gear up in that situation.  On a = runway, I would use the gear, but unless it is a long runway, I will = also keep the speed not in excess.  Any speed above about 80 = MPH results is a bounced landing and significant nose high attitude = with the chance of dragging the rudder, and wasted runway behind = me.
 
Also, a thought in reference to when to = drop the gear.  7 to 10 seconds is fine if the plane still has = electrical.  But if the dump valve has to be used, that will not be = enough time to get the gear down, especially if the pilot has to crab = the plane one or two directions to lock each or both mains in = place.  The pilot is going to be a "busy beaver" in the last 30 = seconds of flight.
 
Gary = Edwards
LNC2
----- = Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 = 12:20 PM
Subject: [LML] Airspeed sensing = switch /Auto gear extension / Engine out gear down = Issue!

Terrence,
Mine is the = same as yours only no auto gear down. Only a warning light and horn for = low speed and gear up.

I would seriously consider changing your = set up for the following reason. This is a bit of a long winded response = but it brings up a vitally important point for the = group.

 Gear and flaps down too early with a dead engine = will have disasterous consequences every time.

With loss of = power, gear and flaps should stay up keeping speed above 120 kts IAS = until the last seconds before landing. My gear down is a count to 7. = Everyone should know how many seconds it takes to get it down and locked = as you will only have one shot to get it right in an emergency. You = wont' be able to do that with your gear set up.

Many Lancair = drivers (myself included until recently) have no idea that these how bad = these airplanes glide dragging the gear with a windmilling = propeller.

That is a deadly mistake. Dragging gear and flaps, you = need a steep nose down attitude to keep the airspeed at a safe speed. = Unfortunately, in that regime you can not flair the airplane. When you = try to flair without a little power these airplanes just slow down and = hit the ground. The situation is much worse if you are heavy. 

This is very = important for every Lancair driver to understand,

With a dead engine if the gear and flaps = are down too early (anything sooner than 10 seconds before ground = contact) the incident will most likely have a tragic outcome. This is = absolutely true.

I don't mean to preach but I believe we = would still have some good friends with us if we all understood this = better. We recently had a fatal crash at my field where an experienced = instructor died in a 210 in a similar circumstance which got me thinking = about this. 
The ONLY way to get down safely on = your wheels in our airplanes is to keep and extra 15 or 20 KTS of energy = (over a typical approach) all the way to ground effect and then drop the = gear and flaps and bleed off speed and touch down. That extra energy is = used quickly extending the wheels and you will need to be touching down = when it is gone or you are toast. 
This applies to me as = much as anyone else..

Randy Snarr
N694RS

--- On Fri, 1/22/10, Terrence = O'Neill <troneill@charter.net><= span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> wrote:

From: Terrence = O'Neill <troneill@charter.net>
Subje= ct: [LML] Re: Airspeed sensing switch needed
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Date: = Friday, January 22, 2010, 3:08 PM

Thanks for the info, Randy.
I have my = airspeed sensing switch set a 90 knots, in the gear-up circuit, so that = no matter where the gear switch is, it can't raise the gear unless the = airspeed is greater than 90 knots.
Same on landing.  I fi = forget to put the gear switch to down, the gear will come down anyway at = 90 knots.
The only downside (no pun intended) is that should I = want to make a gear-su forced landing, I couldn't... and have considered = adding a bypass into the circuit.
Any thoughts on = that/
Terrence 
L235/320 = N211AL



=




= --Apple-Mail-21-682235754--