X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 09:56:39 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from qmta06.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.56] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.2) with ESMTP id 4100430 for lml@lancaironline.net; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 06:56:41 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=76.96.62.56; envelope-from=mjrav@comcast.net Received: from omta11.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.36]) by qmta06.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id abbZ1d0070mv7h056bw6ph; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 11:56:06 +0000 Received: from mjr ([24.2.137.82]) by omta11.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id abw61d0011mqhrL3Xbw6s0; Wed, 27 Jan 2010 11:56:06 +0000 X-Original-Message-ID: <003a01ca9f47$d653a1e0$6501a8c0@mjr> From: "Mark Ravinski" X-Original-To: "Lancair Mailing List" References: Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Engine out gear down Issue/The procedure! This was a wake up call for me... X-Original-Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 06:57:01 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0037_01CA9F1D.ED38EFC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1983 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1983 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01CA9F1D.ED38EFC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A couple of things have some effect. Practicing at higher altitudes takes away the "ground effect" that helps = a roundout or flare. The lower density of the air up higher adds to the = difference. Also, The difference in the flair is substantial at heavier as opposed = to lighter gross weights. =20 The first time I landed with a 240 lb passenger I found that out. It = was a very firm touchdown. So, you will need a little more speed when = heavy. Another thing is that the small tail will have somewhat less elevator = authority. This makes all of the above circumstances a little more = critical. Mark Ravinski 360 1482 hrs ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bill Kennedy=20 To: lml@lancaironline.net=20 Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 5:47 AM Subject: [LML] Re: Engine out gear down Issue/The procedure! This was = a wake up call for me... I've had two occasions to land my large tail LNC2 without engine = power, plus lots of idle power practice landings. I've never had any = trouble with the round out. I think my speed was 80KIAS on the real = engine outs, and slower on the practice landings. I don't understand why = anyone would use over 100 KIAS for a forced landing. 1.3 X Vs0 aught to = give any Lancair plenty of energy to round out in any power setting. = What am I missing? -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 11:10:28 -0500 From: randylsnarr@yahoo.com Subject: [LML] Engine out gear down Issue/The procedure! This was a = wake up call for me... All/ Gary, Good points,=20 The extra 15 - 20 knots is what you give away dropping gear and = flaps transitioning from best glide profile to landing configuration = with a dead engine.=20 My point is that when you are done gliding (at 120mph) and = ready to touch down, the extra energy is necessary if you intend to drop = gear and flaps to touchdown . If a landing is being attempted with no gear, 100 or even 80-90 = mph is good to ground effect, bleed off speed and land on the belly. I = am with you there.=20 If you have your 120 mph glide and drop the gear at 500 or 1000 = feet AGL you are not going to be able to arrest the decent at the = ground. I was shocked to find this out and almost broke my airplane = learning this lesson. It is absolutely true and it scares me that many, = including myself are cruising slow (100kts) and low (pattern altitude) = dragging gear and flaps with partial power. Loss of power at that poing is much much worse than I and ( I = believe) most of us realize!!! Before understanding this a little better, in an engine out = situation, I would have set up for best glide at around 120 mph, find a = reasonable spot to land, drop the gear at 500- 1000 ft AGL and put it = down. This works for a Cessna 150 or 172. For a Lancair the first part = is right the second is DEADLY WRONG....Everyone should try this at a = very safe altitude. It is shocking! I had no idea this was the case!!! Set up best glide at 120 MPH or 106 kts 1000 feet above your = imaginary ground level with absolutely no power (flat idle), descend to = 500 ft above your imaginary ground level and drop the gear (flaps if you = like) . You are now slowed to 85-90 mph dragging the wheels and = descending at 1000 feet per minute or more. Do this to your imaginary = ground level, try to flair the airplane and you blow right through it in = a 1000 to 1500 feet per minute decent!!! No kidding. Try and be = aggressive with back elevator to make it flair and you will stall and = could easily turn it over. TRY THIS ONLY AT A VERY SAFE ALTITUDE! We are = so used to a little power on approach that we really never experience = this until a real emergency happens. Remember it is dramatically worse = with a totally dead engine as you have a huge increase in prop drag.=20 I believe the procedure should be best glide speed ( I like = Gary's 120 MPH) and then pickup the extra 15-20 knots to short final and = drop the gear and flaps and touch down in the last 10 seconds before the = gear/ flap drag bleed off the extra 10 -15 knots. You do not want to fly = any longer than 10 -15 seconds with a dead engine and gear extended. Not = because the airplane wont fly that way, it will. It is because after = those 15-20- extra knots are gone, you can not arrest the decent at the = ground. That was totally foreign to my thinking before this. With the = gear down you can not descend steep enough to pick up enough speed to = flair at the ground. Yikes! A local Legacy driver and friend explained what he learned when = initially practicing engine out landings in the Legacy. He started his simulations with 160 kts IAS downwind in the = pattern (gear and flaps up). After 4 attempts pulling the power and = trying to fly different variations of tight patterns dropping gear and = flaps in various places he came to the following conclusion:=20 The only way to get his Legacy on the ground safely from a = complete engine failure in the pattern was to IMMEDIATELY turn and dive = for the end of the runway holding around 135 knots and dropping the = gear/flaps only at short final. He said it feels like a very radical = move but it is the only way. He has thousands of hours of HP airplane = time and is very experience in the Legacy. He admitted he grotesquely = over estimated the airplanes ability to make the runway with NO power. = He went on to say that few realize the dramatic flight characteristic = change from low power to no power. You loose the small amount of thrust = and add a TON of drag. Each time he turned sooner and tighter. He also = said he would have bought it if he had to do it for real had he not = practiced it several times to truly understand what it takes to get it = down. The story spooked me enough to prove it was true in my 235/320 and = he is absolutely right.=20 This is important, our Lancair's absolutely with not round out = at the bottom with no running engine with gear and flaps down, again = unless you have the precious 15-20 knots extra energy used at the very = last moments as it goes quickly with wheels down. You trade that extra = energy for the flair. No extra speed no flair... I believe all high performance airplanes share this behavior to = one degree or another. I also strongly believe engine out landings can = be done successfully if we better understand how our airplanes fly with = a dead engine and execute the right emergency procedures.=20 IMHO... Sorry for ranting... I would very much like to hear from the LOBO fliers on this = subject. I am sure this has come up in the training. Randy Snarr N694RS N235/320 --- On Sun, 1/24/10, Gary Edwards wrote: From: Gary Edwards Subject: [LML] Re: Airspeed sensing switch /Auto gear = extension / Engine out gear down Issue! To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Sunday, January 24, 2010, 4:07 PM That is good info for everyone. =20 However, in my 235, 120 MPH is the best glide speed. That = equates to 104 knots. I do not want to be going any faster in event of = an off field landing, and most likely, I will leave the gear up in that = situation. On a runway, I would use the gear, but unless it is a long = runway, I will also keep the speed not in excess. Any speed above about = 80 MPH results is a bounced landing and significant nose high attitude = with the chance of dragging the rudder, and wasted runway behind me. Also, a thought in reference to when to drop the gear. 7 to = 10 seconds is fine if the plane still has electrical. But if the dump = valve has to be used, that will not be enough time to get the gear down, = especially if the pilot has to crab the plane one or two directions to = lock each or both mains in place. The pilot is going to be a "busy = beaver" in the last 30 seconds of flight. Gary Edwards LNC2 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: randy snarr=20 To: lml@lancaironline.net=20 Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 12:20 PM Subject: [LML] Airspeed sensing switch /Auto gear extension = / Engine out gear down Issue! Terrence, Mine is the same as yours only no auto gear down. Only = a warning light and horn for low speed and gear up. I would seriously consider changing your set up for = the following reason. This is a bit of a long winded response but it = brings up a vitally important point for the group. Gear and flaps down too early with a dead engine will = have disasterous consequences every time. With loss of power, gear and flaps should stay up = keeping speed above 120 kts IAS until the last seconds before landing. = My gear down is a count to 7. Everyone should know how many seconds it = takes to get it down and locked as you will only have one shot to get it = right in an emergency. You wont' be able to do that with your gear set = up. Many Lancair drivers (myself included until recently) = have no idea that these how bad these airplanes glide dragging the gear = with a windmilling propeller. That is a deadly mistake. Dragging gear and flaps, you = need a steep nose down attitude to keep the airspeed at a safe speed. = Unfortunately, in that regime you can not flair the airplane. When you = try to flair without a little power these airplanes just slow down and = hit the ground. The situation is much worse if you are heavy.=20 This is very important for every Lancair driver to = understand, With a dead engine if the gear and flaps are down too = early (anything sooner than 10 seconds before ground contact) the = incident will most likely have a tragic outcome. This is absolutely = true. I don't mean to preach but I believe we would still = have some good friends with us if we all understood this better. We = recently had a fatal crash at my field where an experienced instructor = died in a 210 in a similar circumstance which got me thinking about = this.=20 -------------------------------------------------------------- The ONLY way to get down safely on your wheels in our = airplanes is to keep and extra 15 or 20 KTS of energy (over a typical = approach) all the way to ground effect and then drop the gear and flaps = and bleed off speed and touch down. That extra energy is used quickly = extending the wheels and you will need to be touching down when it is = gone or you are toast.=20 This applies to me as much as anyone else.. Randy Snarr N694RS --- On Fri, 1/22/10, Terrence O'Neill = wrote: From: Terrence O'Neill Subject: [LML] Re: Airspeed sensing switch needed To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Friday, January 22, 2010, 3:08 PM Thanks for the info, Randy.=20 I have my airspeed sensing switch set a 90 knots, in = the gear-up circuit, so that no matter where the gear switch is, it = can't raise the gear unless the airspeed is greater than 90 knots. Same on landing. I fi forget to put the gear switch = to down, the gear will come down anyway at 90 knots. The only downside (no pun intended) is that should I = want to make a gear-su forced landing, I couldn't... and have considered = adding a bypass into the circuit. Any thoughts on that/ Terrence=20 L235/320 N211AL =20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01CA9F1D.ED38EFC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A couple of things have some = effect.
Practicing at higher altitudes takes away the = "ground=20 effect" that helps a roundout or flare.  The lower density of the = air up=20 higher adds to the difference.
Also,  The difference in the flair is = substantial at=20 heavier as opposed to lighter gross weights. 
The first time I landed with a 240 lb passenger = I found=20 that out.  It was a very firm touchdown.  So, you will need a = little=20 more speed when heavy.
Another thing is that the small tail will have = somewhat=20 less elevator authority.  This makes all of the above circumstances = a=20 little more critical.
 
Mark Ravinski
360   1482 hrs
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Bill Kennedy
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, = 2010 5:47=20 AM
Subject: [LML] Re: Engine out = gear down=20 Issue/The procedure! This was a wake up call for me...

I've had two occasions to land my large tail LNC2 = without=20 engine power, plus lots of idle power practice landings. I've never = had any=20 trouble with the round out. I think my speed was 80KIAS on the real = engine=20 outs, and slower on the practice landings. I don't understand why = anyone would=20 use over 100 KIAS for a forced landing. 1.3 X Vs0 aught to give any = Lancair=20 plenty of energy to round out in any power setting. What am I = missing?

To: lml@lancaironline.net
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 11:10:28 = -0500
From:=20 randylsnarr@yahoo.com
Subject: [LML] Engine out gear down Issue/The = procedure! This was a wake up call for me...

All/ Gary,
Good points,
The extra 15 - 20 = knots is=20 what you give away dropping gear and flaps transitioning from = best glide=20 profile to landing configuration with a dead engine.

My = point is=20 that when you are done gliding (at 120mph)  and ready to = touch=20 down, the extra energy is necessary if you intend to drop gear = and flaps=20 to touchdown .
If a landing is being attempted with no gear, = 100 or=20 even 80-90 mph is good to ground effect, bleed off speed and = land on the=20 belly. I am with you there.

If you have your 120 mph = glide and=20 drop the gear at 500 or 1000 feet AGL you are not going to be = able to=20 arrest the decent at the ground.  I was shocked to = find this=20 out and almost broke my airplane learning this lesson. It is = absolutely=20 true and it scares me that many, including myself are cruising = slow=20 (100kts) and low (pattern altitude) dragging gear and flaps with = partial=20 power.
Loss of power at that poing is much much worse than I = and ( I=20 believe)  most of us realize!!!

Before understanding = this a=20 little better, in an engine out situation,  I would have = set up for=20 best glide at around 120 mph, find a reasonable spot to land, = drop the=20 gear at 500- 1000 ft AGL and put it down. This works for a = Cessna 150 or=20 172. For a Lancair the first part is right the second is DEADLY=20 WRONG....Everyone should try this at a very safe altitude. It is = shocking! I had no idea this was the case!!!

Set up best = glide at=20 120 MPH or 106 kts 1000 feet above your imaginary ground level = with=20 absolutely no power (flat idle), descend to 500 ft above your = imaginary=20 ground level and drop the gear (flaps if you like) . You are now = slowed=20 to 85-90 mph dragging the wheels and descending at 1000 feet per = minute=20 or more. Do this to your imaginary ground level, try to flair = the=20 airplane and you blow right through it in a 1000 to 1500 feet = per minute=20 decent!!! No kidding. Try and be aggressive with back elevator = to make=20 it flair and you will stall and could easily turn it over. TRY = THIS ONLY=20 AT A VERY SAFE ALTITUDE! We are so used to a little power on = approach=20 that we really never experience this until a real emergency = happens.=20 Remember it is = dramatically=20 worse with a totally dead engine as you have a huge increase in = prop=20 drag.

I believe the procedure should be best = glide speed=20 ( I like Gary's 120 MPH) and then pickup the extra 15-20 knots = to short=20 final and drop the gear and flaps and touch down in the last 10 = seconds=20 before the gear/ flap drag bleed off the extra 10 -15 knots. = You do not want to fly any = longer=20 than 10 -15 seconds with a dead engine and gear extended. = Not=20 because the airplane wont fly that way, it will. It is because = after=20 those 15-20- extra knots are gone, you can not arrest the decent = at the=20 ground. That was totally foreign to my thinking before this. = With the=20 gear down you can not descend steep enough to pick up enough = speed to=20 flair at the ground. Yikes!

A local Legacy driver and = friend=20 explained what he learned when initially practicing engine out = landings=20 in the Legacy.
He started his simulations with 160 kts IAS = downwind=20 in the pattern (gear and flaps up). After 4 attempts pulling the = power=20 and trying to fly different variations of tight patterns = dropping gear=20 and flaps in various places he came to the following conclusion: =
The=20 only=20 way to get his Legacy on the ground safely from a complete = engine=20 failure in the pattern was to IMMEDIATELY turn and dive for the = end of=20 the runway holding around 135 knots and dropping the gear/flaps = only at=20 short final. He said it feels like a very radical move but it is = the=20 only way. He has thousands of hours of HP airplane time and is = very=20 experience in the Legacy. He admitted he grotesquely over = estimated the=20 airplanes ability to make the runway with NO power.=20 He went on to say that few realize the dramatic flight = characteristic=20 change from low power to no power.  You loose the small = amount of=20 thrust and add a TON of drag.  Each time he turned sooner = and=20 tighter. He also said he would have bought it if he had to do it = for=20 real had he not practiced it several times to truly understand = what it=20 takes to get it down. The story spooked me enough to prove it = was true=20 in my 235/320 and he is absolutely right.

This is = important, our=20 Lancair's absolutely with not round out at the bottom with no = running=20 engine with gear and flaps down, again unless you have the = precious=20 15-20 knots extra energy used at the very last moments as it = goes=20 quickly with wheels down. You trade that extra energy for the = flair. No=20 extra speed no flair...

I believe all high performance = airplanes=20 share this behavior to one degree or another. I also strongly = believe=20 engine out landings can be done successfully if we better = understand how=20 our airplanes fly with a dead engine and execute the right = emergency=20 procedures.

IMHO...
Sorry for ranting...

I = would very=20 much like to hear from the LOBO fliers on this subject. I am = sure this=20 has come up in the training.

Randy=20 Snarr
N694RS
N235/320


--- On Sun, 1/24/10, = Gary=20 Edwards <gary21sn@hotmail.com> wrote:

From: Gary=20 Edwards <gary21sn@hotmail.com>
Subject: [LML] Re: = Airspeed=20 sensing switch /Auto gear extension / Engine out gear down=20 Issue!
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Date: Sunday, January = 24, 2010,=20 4:07 PM

That is good info for everyone.  
 
However, in my 235, 120 = MPH is the=20 best glide speed.  That equates to 104 knots.  I do = not want=20 to be going any faster in event of an off field landing, = and most=20 likely, I will leave the gear up in that situation.  On a = runway,=20 I would use the gear, but unless it is a long runway, I will = also keep=20 the speed not in excess.  Any speed above about 80 = MPH=20 results is a bounced landing and significant nose high = attitude=20 with the chance of dragging the rudder, and wasted runway = behind=20 me.
 
Also, a thought in reference to when to drop the = gear.  7 to=20 10 seconds is fine if the plane still has electrical.  = But if the=20 dump valve has to be used, that will not be enough time to get = the=20 gear down, especially if the pilot has to crab the plane one = or two=20 directions to lock each or both mains in place.  The = pilot is=20 going to be a "busy beaver" in the last 30 seconds of = flight.
 
Gary Edwards
LNC2
----- Original Message ----- =
From: randy snarr
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sent: Saturday, = January 23,=20 2010 12:20 PM
Subject: [LML] = Airspeed sensing=20 switch /Auto gear extension / Engine out gear down = Issue!

Terrence,
Mine is the same as yours = only no=20 auto gear down. Only a warning light and horn for low = speed=20 and gear up.

I would seriously consider = changing your=20 set up for the following reason. This is a bit of a = long=20 winded response but it brings up a vitally important = point for=20 the group.

 Gear and flaps down too early = with a=20 dead engine will have disasterous consequences every=20 time.

With loss of power, gear and flaps should = stay up=20 keeping speed above 120 kts IAS until the last seconds = before=20 landing. My gear down is a count to 7. Everyone should = know=20 how many seconds it takes to get it down and locked as = you=20 will only have one shot to get it right in an = emergency. You=20 wont' be able to do that with your gear set = up.

Many=20 Lancair drivers (myself included until recently) have = no idea=20 that these how bad these airplanes glide dragging the = gear=20 with a windmilling propeller.

That is a deadly = mistake.=20 Dragging gear and flaps, you need a steep nose down = attitude=20 to keep the airspeed at a safe speed. Unfortunately, = in that=20 regime you can not flair the airplane. When you try to = flair=20 without a little power these airplanes just slow down = and hit=20 the ground. The situation is much worse if you are = heavy.=20

This is very important for every Lancair = driver to=20 understand,

With a dead=20 engine if the gear and flaps are down too early = (anything=20 sooner than 10 seconds before ground contact) the = incident=20 will most likely have a tragic outcome. This is = absolutely=20 true.

I don't mean to preach but I = believe we=20 would still have some good friends with us if we all=20 understood this better. We recently had a fatal crash = at my=20 field where an experienced instructor died in a 210 in = a=20 similar circumstance which got me thinking about this. =
The ONLY way to get down safely on your wheels in our=20 airplanes is to keep and extra 15 or 20 KTS of energy = (over a=20 typical approach) all the way to ground effect and = then drop=20 the gear and flaps and bleed off speed and touch down. = That=20 extra energy is used quickly extending the wheels and = you will=20 need to be touching down when it is gone or you are = toast.=20
This applies to me as much as anyone = else..

Randy=20 Snarr
N694RS

--- On Fri, 1/22/10, = Terrence=20 O'Neill <troneill@charter.net> = wrote:

From:=20 Terrence O'Neill = <troneill@charter.net>
Subject:=20 [LML] Re: Airspeed sensing switch needed
To:=20 lml@lancaironline.net
Date: Friday, January 22, = 2010,=20 3:08 PM

Thanks for the info, = Randy.=20
I have my airspeed sensing switch set a 90 = knots, in=20 the gear-up circuit, so that no matter where the = gear switch=20 is, it can't raise the gear unless the airspeed is = greater=20 than 90 knots.
Same on landing.  I fi forget to put the = gear=20 switch to down, the gear will come down anyway at 90 = knots.
The only downside (no pun intended) is that = should I=20 want to make a gear-su forced landing, I couldn't... = and=20 have considered adding a bypass into the = circuit.
Any thoughts on that/
Terrence 
L235/320 N211AL




 

<= /BLOCKQUOTE>


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