X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 05:47:03 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from col0-omc3-s7.col0.hotmail.com ([65.55.34.145] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.1) with ESMTP id 4096950 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 26 Jan 2010 14:11:13 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=65.55.34.145; envelope-from=bill_kennedy_3@hotmail.com Received: from COL108-W4 ([65.55.34.137]) by col0-omc3-s7.col0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Tue, 26 Jan 2010 11:10:37 -0800 X-Original-Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: bill_kennedy_3@hotmail.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_0ec5a8b8-cd22-4351-8969-11ed48f3eb88_" X-Originating-IP: [65.182.241.193] From: Bill Kennedy X-Original-To: Subject: RE: [LML] Engine out gear down Issue/The procedure! This was a wake up call for me... X-Original-Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 11:10:37 -0800 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Jan 2010 19:10:37.0816 (UTC) FILETIME=[3E807780:01CA9EBB] --_0ec5a8b8-cd22-4351-8969-11ed48f3eb88_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've had two occasions to land my large tail LNC2 without engine power=2C p= lus lots of idle power practice landings. I've never had any trouble with t= he round out. I think my speed was 80KIAS on the real engine outs=2C and sl= ower on the practice landings. I don't understand why anyone would use over= 100 KIAS for a forced landing. 1.3 X Vs0 aught to give any Lancair plenty = of energy to round out in any power setting. What am I missing? To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tue=2C 26 Jan 2010 11:10:28 -0500 From: randylsnarr@yahoo.com Subject: [LML] Engine out gear down Issue/The procedure! This was a wake up= call for me... All/ Gary=2C Good points=2C=20 The extra 15 - 20 knots is what you give away dropping gear and flaps trans= itioning from best glide profile to landing configuration with a dead engin= e.=20 My point is that when you are done gliding (at 120mph) and ready to touch = down=2C the extra energy is necessary if you intend to drop gear and flaps = to touchdown . If a landing is being attempted with no gear=2C 100 or even 80-90 mph is go= od to ground effect=2C bleed off speed and land on the belly. I am with you= there.=20 If you have your 120 mph glide and drop the gear at 500 or 1000 feet AGL yo= u are not going to be able to arrest the decent at the ground. I was shock= ed to find this out and almost broke my airplane learning this lesson. It i= s absolutely true and it scares me that many=2C including myself are cruising slow (100kts) and low (pattern altitude) dragging gear and flaps = with partial power. Loss of power at that poing is much much worse than I and ( I believe) mos= t of us realize!!! Before understanding this a little better=2C in an engine out situation=2C = I would have set up for best glide at around 120 mph=2C find a reasonable = spot to land=2C drop the gear at 500- 1000 ft AGL and put it down. This wor= ks for a Cessna 150 or 172. For a Lancair the first part is right the secon= d is DEADLY WRONG....Everyone should try this at a very safe altitude. It i= s shocking! I had no idea this was the case!!! Set up best glide at 120 MPH or 106 kts 1000 feet above your imaginary grou= nd level with absolutely no power (flat idle)=2C descend to 500 ft above yo= ur imaginary ground level and drop the gear (flaps if you like) . You are n= ow slowed to 85-90 mph dragging the wheels and descending at 1000 feet per = minute or more. Do this to your imaginary ground level=2C try to flair the airplane and you blow right thr= ough it in a 1000 to 1500 feet per minute decent!!! No kidding. Try and be = aggressive with back elevator to make it flair and you will stall and could= easily turn it over. TRY THIS ONLY AT A VERY SAFE ALTITUDE! We are so used= to a little power on approach that we really never experience this until a= real emergency happens. Remember it is dramatically worse with a totally d= ead engine as you have a huge increase in prop drag.=20 I believe the procedure should be best glide speed ( I like Gary's 120 MPH)= and then pickup the extra 15-20 knots to short final and drop the gear and= flaps and touch down in the last 10 seconds before the gear/ flap drag ble= ed off the extra 10 -15 knots. You do not want to fly any longer than 10 -1= 5 seconds with a dead engine and gear extended. Not because the airplane wont fly that way=2C it will. It is because after those 15-20= - extra knots are gone=2C you can not arrest the decent at the ground. That= was totally foreign to my thinking before this. With the gear down you can= not descend steep enough to pick up enough speed to flair at the ground. Y= ikes! A local Legacy driver and friend explained what he learned when initially p= racticing engine out landings in the Legacy. He started his simulations with 160 kts IAS downwind in the pattern (gear a= nd flaps up). After 4 attempts pulling the power and trying to fly differen= t variations of tight patterns dropping gear and flaps in various places he= came to the following conclusion:=20 The only way to get his Legacy on the ground safely from a complete engine = failure in the pattern was to IMMEDIATELY turn and dive for the end of the = runway holding around 135 knots and dropping the gear/flaps only at short final. He said it feels like a very radical move = but it is the only way. He has thousands of hours of HP airplane time and i= s very experience in the Legacy. He admitted he grotesquely over estimated = the airplanes ability to make the runway with NO power. He went on to say t= hat few realize the dramatic flight characteristic change from low power to= no power. You loose the small amount of thrust and add a TON of drag. Ea= ch time he turned sooner and tighter. He also said he would have bought it = if he had to do it for real had he not practiced it several times to truly = understand what it takes to get it down. The story spooked me enough to pro= ve it was true in my 235/320 and he is absolutely right.=20 This is important=2C our Lancair's absolutely with not round out at the bot= tom with no running engine with gear and flaps down=2C again unless you hav= e the precious 15-20 knots extra energy used at the very last moments as it = goes quickly with wheels down. You trade that extra energy for the flair. N= o extra speed no flair... I believe all high performance airplanes share this behavior to one degree = or another. I also strongly believe engine out landings can be done success= fully if we better understand how our airplanes fly with a dead engine and = execute the right emergency procedures.=20 IMHO... Sorry for ranting... I would very much like to hear from the LOBO fliers on this subject. I am s= ure this has come up in the training. Randy Snarr N694RS N235/320 --- On Sun=2C 1/24/10=2C Gary Edwards wrote: From: Gary Edwards Subject: [LML] Re: Airspeed sensing switch /Auto gear extension / Engine out gear down Issue! To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Sunday=2C January 24=2C 2010=2C 4:07 PM =20 That is good info for everyone. =20 =20 However=2C in my 235=2C 120 MPH is the best glide=20 speed. That equates to 104 knots. I do not want to be going any=20 faster in event of an off field landing=2C and most likely=2C I will leave = the=20 gear up in that situation. On a runway=2C I would use the gear=2C but unle= ss=20 it is a long runway=2C I will also keep the speed not in excess. Any speed= =20 above about 80 MPH results is a bounced landing and significant nose=20 high attitude with the chance of dragging the rudder=2C and wasted runway b= ehind=20 me. =20 Also=2C a thought in reference to when to drop the gear. 7 to 10=20 seconds is fine if the plane still has electrical. But if the dump valve=20 has to be used=2C that will not be enough time to get the gear down=2C espe= cially if=20 the pilot has to crab the plane one or two directions to lock each or both = mains=20 in place. The pilot is going to be a "busy beaver" in the last 30 seconds= =20 of flight. =20 Gary Edwards LNC2 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: randy=20 snarr=20 To: lml@lancaironline.net=20 Sent: Saturday=2C January 23=2C 2010 12:20=20 PM Subject: [LML] Airspeed sensing switch=20 /Auto gear extension / Engine out gear down Issue! =20 =20 =20 =20 Terrence=2C Mine is the same as yours only no auto gear=20 down. Only a warning light and horn for low speed and gear up. I=20 would seriously consider changing your set up for the following rea= son.=20 This is a bit of a long winded response but it brings up a vitally= =20 important point for the group. Gear and flaps down too=20 early with a dead engine will have disasterous consequences every=20 time. With loss of power=2C gear and flaps should stay up keeping=20 speed above 120 kts IAS until the last seconds before landing. My g= ear=20 down is a count to 7. Everyone should know how many seconds it take= s to=20 get it down and locked as you will only have one shot to get it rig= ht in=20 an emergency. You wont' be able to do that with your gear set=20 up. Many Lancair drivers (myself included until recently) have no=20 idea that these how bad these airplanes glide dragging the gear wit= h a=20 windmilling propeller. That is a deadly mistake. Dragging gear=20 and flaps=2C you need a steep nose down attitude to keep the airspe= ed at a=20 safe speed. Unfortunately=2C in that regime you can not flair the=20 airplane. When you try to flair without a little power these airpla= nes=20 just slow down and hit the ground. The situation is much worse if y= ou=20 are heavy.=20 This is very important for every Lancair driver to=20 understand=2C With a dead engine if=20 the gear and flaps are down too early (anything sooner than 10 seco= nds=20 before ground contact) the incident will most likely have a tragic= =20 outcome. This is absolutely true. I don't mean to preach=20 but I believe we would still have some good friends with us if we a= ll=20 understood this better. We recently had a fatal crash at my field w= here=20 an experienced instructor died in a 210 in a similar circumstance w= hich=20 got me thinking about this.=20 =20 The ONLY way to get down safely on your wheels in our airplanes is = to=20 keep and extra 15 or 20 KTS of energy (over a typical approach) all= the=20 way to ground effect and then drop the gear and flaps and bleed off= =20 speed and touch down. That extra energy is used quickly extending t= he=20 wheels and you will need to be touching down when it is gone or you= are=20 toast.=20 This applies to me as much as anyone else.. Randy=20 Snarr N694RS --- On Fri=2C 1/22/10=2C Terrence O'Neill=20 wrote: =20 From:=20 Terrence O'Neill Subject: [LML] Re:=20 Airspeed sensing switch needed To: lml@lancaironline.net Date:=20 Friday=2C January 22=2C 2010=2C 3:08 PM Thanks for the info=2C Randy.=20 I have my airspeed sensing switch set a 90 knots=2C in the gear-u= p=20 circuit=2C so that no matter where the gear switch is=2C it can't= raise=20 the gear unless the airspeed is greater than 90 knots. Same on landing. I fi forget to put the gear switch to=20 down=2C the gear will come down anyway at 90 knots. The only downside (no pun intended) is that should I want to make= =20 a gear-su forced landing=2C I couldn't... and have considered add= ing a=20 bypass into the circuit. Any thoughts on that/ Terrence=20 L235/320 N211AL =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 = --_0ec5a8b8-cd22-4351-8969-11ed48f3eb88_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've had two occasions to land my large tail LNC2 without engine power=2C p= lus lots of idle power practice landings. I've never had any trouble with t= he round out. I think my speed was 80KIAS on the real engine outs=2C and sl= ower on the practice landings. I don't understand why anyone would use over= 100 KIAS for a forced landing. 1.3 X Vs0 aught to give any Lancair plenty = of energy to round out in any power setting. What am I missing?

To: lml@lancaironline.net
Date: Tue=2C 26 Jan 2010 1= 1:10:28 -0500
From: randylsnarr@yahoo.com
Subject: [LML] Engine out g= ear down Issue/The procedure! This was a wake up call for me...

All/ Gary=2C
Good points=2C
The extra 15 - 20 knots is w= hat you give away dropping gear and flaps transitioning from best glide pro= file to landing configuration with a dead engine.

My point is that = when you are done gliding (at 120mph) =3B and ready to touch down=2C th= e extra energy is necessary if you intend to drop gear and flaps to touchdo= wn .
If a landing is being attempted with no gear=2C 100 or even 80-90 m= ph is good to ground effect=2C bleed off speed and land on the belly. I am = with you there.

If you have your 120 mph glide and drop the gear at= 500 or 1000 feet AGL you are= not going to be able to arrest the decent at the ground. =3B I = was shocked to find this out and almost broke my airplane learning this les= son. It is absolutely true and it scares me that many=2C including myself a= re cruising slow (100kts) and low (pattern altitude) dragging gear and flaps = with partial power.
Loss of power at that poing is much much worse than = I and ( I believe) =3B most of us realize!!!

Before understandin= g this a little better=2C in an engine out situation=2C =3B I would hav= e set up for best glide at around 120 mph=2C find a reasonable spot to land= =2C drop the gear at 500- 1000 ft AGL and put it down. This works for a Ces= sna 150 or 172. For a Lancair the first part is right the second is DEADLY = WRONG....Everyone should try this at a very safe altitude. It is shocking! = I had no idea this was the case!!!

Set up best glide at 120 MPH or 1= 06 kts 1000 feet above your imaginary ground level with absolutely no power= (flat idle)=2C descend to 500 ft above your imaginary ground level and dro= p the gear (flaps if you like) . You are now slowed to 85-90 mph dragging t= he wheels and descending at 1000 feet per minute or more. Do this to your imaginary ground level=2C try to flair the airplane and you blow right thr= ough it in a 1000 to 1500 feet per minute decent!!! No kidding. Try and be = aggressive with back elevator to make it flair and you will stall and could= easily turn it over. TRY THIS ONLY AT A VERY SAFE ALTITUDE! We are so used= to a little power on approach that we really never experience this until a= real emergency happens. Reme= mber it is dramatically worse with a totally dead engine as you have a huge= increase in prop drag.

I believe the procedure should be be= st glide speed ( I like Gary's 120 MPH) and then pickup the extra 15-20 kno= ts to short final and drop the gear and flaps and touch down in the last 10= seconds before the gear/ flap drag bleed off the extra 10 -15 knots. You do not want to fly any longer = than 10 -15 seconds with a dead engine and gear extended. Not becaus= e the airplane wont fly that way=2C it will. It is because after those 15-20= - extra knots are gone=2C you can not arrest the decent at the ground. That= was totally foreign to my thinking before this. With the gear down you can= not descend steep enough to pick up enough speed to flair at the ground. Y= ikes!

A local Legacy driver and friend explained what he learned whe= n initially practicing engine out landings in the Legacy.
He started his= simulations with 160 kts IAS downwind in the pattern (gear and flaps up). = After 4 attempts pulling the power and trying to fly different variations o= f tight patterns dropping gear and flaps in various places he came to the f= ollowing conclusion:
The only way to get his Legacy on the ground safely= from a complete engine failure in the pattern was to IMMEDIATELY turn and = dive for the end of the runway holding around 135 knots and dropping the gear/flaps only at short final. He said it feels like a very radical move = but it is the only way. He has thousands of hours of HP airplane time and i= s very experience in the Legacy. He admitted he grotesquely over estimated = the airplanes ability to make the runway with NO power. He went on to say th= at few realize the dramatic flight characteristic change from low power to = no power. =3B You loose the small amount of thrust and add a TON of dra= g. =3B Each time he turned sooner and tighter. He also said he would ha= ve bought it if he had to do it for real had he not practiced it several ti= mes to truly understand what it takes to get it down. The story spooked me = enough to prove it was true in my 235/320 and he is absolutely right.
<= br>This is important=2C our Lancair's absolutely with not round out at the = bottom with no running engine with gear and flaps down=2C again unless you = have the precious 15-20 knots extra energy used at the very last moments as it = goes quickly with wheels down. You trade that extra energy for the flair. N= o extra speed no flair...

I believe all high performance airplanes s= hare this behavior to one degree or another. I also strongly believe engine= out landings can be done successfully if we better understand how our airp= lanes fly with a dead engine and execute the right emergency procedures.
IMHO...
Sorry for ranting...

I would very much like to hear= from the LOBO fliers on this subject. I am sure this has come up in the tr= aining.

Randy Snarr
N694RS
N235/320


--- On Sun= =2C 1/24/10=2C Gary Edwards <=3Bgary21sn@hotmail.com>=3B wro= te:

F= rom: Gary Edwards <=3Bgary21sn@hotmail.com>=3B
Subject: [LML] Re: Ai= rspeed sensing switch /Auto gear extension / Engine out gear down Issue!
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Date: Sunday= =2C January 24=2C 2010=2C 4:07 PM

=20
That is good info =3Bfor everyone. =3B =3B
 =3B
However=2C in my 235=2C 120 MPH =3Bis the = best glide=20 speed. =3B That equates to 104 knots. =3B I do not want to be going= any=20 faster =3Bin event of an off field landing=2C and most likely=2C I will= leave the=20 gear up in that situation. =3B On a runway=2C I would use the gear=2C b= ut unless=20 it is a long runway=2C I will also keep the speed not in excess. =3B An= y speed=20 above =3Babout 80 MPH results is a =3Bbounced landing and significa= nt nose=20 high attitude with the chance of dragging the rudder=2C and wasted runway b= ehind=20 me.
 =3B
Also=2C a thought in reference to when to drop the gear. =3B 7 to = 10=20 seconds is fine if the plane still has electrical. =3B But if the dump = valve=20 has to be used=2C that will not be enough time to get the gear down=2C espe= cially if=20 the pilot has to crab the plane one or two directions to lock each or both = mains=20 in place. =3B The pilot is going to be a "busy beaver" in the last 30 s= econds=20 of flight.
 =3B
Gary Edwards
LNC2
= ----- Original Message -----
= Sent: Saturday=2C January 23=2C 2010 12:20=20 PM
= Subject: [LML] Airspeed sensing switch=20 /Auto gear extension / Engine out gear down Issue!

Terrence=2C
Mine is the same as yours only no a= uto gear=20 down. Only a warning light and horn for low speed and gear up.
<= br>I=20 would seriously consider changing your set up for the following rea= son.=20 This is a bit of a long winded response but it brings up a vitally= =20 important point for the group.

 =3BGear and flaps down t= oo=20 early with a dead engine will have disasterous consequences every=20 time.

With loss of power=2C gear and flaps should stay up ke= eping=20 speed above 120 kts IAS until the last seconds before landing. My g= ear=20 down is a count to 7. Everyone should know how many seconds it take= s to=20 get it down and locked as you will only have one shot to get it rig= ht in=20 an emergency. You wont' be able to do that with your gear set=20 up.

Many Lancair drivers (myself included until recently) ha= ve no=20 idea that these how bad these airplanes glide dragging the gear wit= h a=20 windmilling propeller.

That is a deadly mistake. Dragging ge= ar=20 and flaps=2C you need a steep nose down attitude to keep the airspe= ed at a=20 safe speed. Unfortunately=2C in that regime you can not flair the=20 airplane. When you try to flair without a little power these airpla= nes=20 just slow down and hit the ground. The situation is much worse if y= ou=20 are heavy.

This is very important for every Lancair driver = to=20 understand=2C

With a de= ad engine if=20 the gear and flaps are down too early (anything sooner than 10 seco= nds=20 before ground contact) the incident will most likely have a tragic= =20 outcome. This is absolutely true.

I don't mean to pre= ach=20 but I believe we would still have some good friends with us if we a= ll=20 understood this better. We recently had a fatal crash at my field w= here=20 an experienced instructor died in a 210 in a similar circumstance w= hich=20 got me thinking about this.
The ONLY way to get down safely on your wheels in our airplanes is = to=20 keep and extra 15 or 20 KTS of energy (over a typical approach) all= the=20 way to ground effect and then drop the gear and flaps and bleed off= =20 speed and touch down. That extra energy is used quickly extending t= he=20 wheels and you will need to be touching down when it is gone or you= are=20 toast.
This applies to me as much as anyone else..

Randy= =20 Snarr
N694RS

--- On Fri=2C 1/22/10=2C Terrence O'Neill= =20 <=3Btroneill@charter.net>=3B wrote:

= From:=20 Terrence O'Neill <=3Btroneill@charter.net>=3B
Subject: [LM= L] Re:=20 Airspeed sensing switch needed
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Da= te:=20 Friday=2C January 22=2C 2010=2C 3:08 PM

Thanks for the info=2C Randy.=20
I have my airspeed sensing switch set a 90 knots=2C in the g= ear-up=20 circuit=2C so that no matter where the gear switch is=2C it can't= raise=20 the gear unless the airspeed is greater than 90 knots.
Same on landing.  =3BI fi forget to put the gear switch = to=20 down=2C the gear will come down anyway at 90 knots.
The only downside (no pun intended) is that should I want to= make=20 a gear-su forced landing=2C I couldn't... and have considered add= ing a=20 bypass into the circuit.
Any thoughts on that/
Terrence =3B
L235/320 N211AL




 =3B




= --_0ec5a8b8-cd22-4351-8969-11ed48f3eb88_--