X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 11:10:28 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from web111412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com ([67.195.15.198] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.1) with SMTP id 4096103 for lml@lancaironline.net; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 22:46:52 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=67.195.15.198; envelope-from=randylsnarr@yahoo.com Received: (qmail 60516 invoked by uid 60001); 26 Jan 2010 03:46:17 -0000 DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=puLcl55y2uuTCZJ1mc6OmlHvRnshr45hMeU7nLIL89nSxJJkB3uLslPvZrgNY8ZAGyUepSfNNH0SV4KkIAUYrXozvJeUPPRMp2RKNlb1uGyXYvwykBLwxkY2KOPbVutxou6A0dp14TaEL/FGz6FfstM2F8ZvHz5dxnq3U8xtFZg=; X-Original-Message-ID: <944249.60252.qm@web111412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: OJ5.XWkVM1mjoh7ZINYWV6_6XvL61ktUn4kMgkYg.cDhb34djNRjRhuHDgEPx.DRMO2yEGcDVYjd9yZt4e_37CvVM7rEcA6GIzq262xJudctwZgfruYyPU2GkrlGQeEE7DDiuqg1eAnDPDO1b31L9KCQyh.NlADCLWTtubCIA4BR7Yy6ypRrSUOe5wn_erWn8th2fk76Z86OX2YxOgbc3x2KIJ9ccK6S31flrRewg1T4rT3HkxeTVkE_s8Wa25AE2AXCP84CPe1eO9lpiRz2IByp653OdF0PZkBkbJKS64UcoEIYEQfQEYGrrMJeVC2zr6f.e7ENdWbfXD0Qa9Zn1A_o5P9Fq3._.xTd0E8lBl.zn08bfqbhNm6mbJ3xfe2Yw0mI6OaDtXqR3vtLKKXr6giV3I5udQ-- Received: from [76.8.220.18] by web111412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 19:46:16 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailClassic/9.1.10 YahooMailWebService/0.8.100.260964 X-Original-Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 19:46:16 -0800 (PST) From: randy snarr Subject: Engine out gear down Issue/The procedure! This was a wake up call for me... X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1528991791-1264477576=:60252" --0-1528991791-1264477576=:60252 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All/ Gary, Good points,=20 The extra 15 - 20 knots is what you give away dropping gear and flaps trans= itioning from best glide profile to landing configuration with a dead engin= e.=20 My point is that when you are done gliding (at 120mph)=A0 and ready to touc= h down, the extra energy is necessary if you intend to drop gear and flaps = to touchdown . If a landing is being attempted with no gear, 100 or even 80-90 mph is good= to ground effect, bleed off speed and land on the belly. I am with you the= re.=20 If you have your 120 mph glide and drop the gear at 500 or 1000 feet AGL yo= u are not going to be able to arrest the decent at the ground.=A0 I was sho= cked to find this out and almost broke my airplane learning this lesson. It= is absolutely true and it scares me that many, including myself are cruisi= ng slow (100kts) and low (pattern altitude) dragging gear and flaps with pa= rtial power. Loss of power at that poing is much much worse than I and ( I believe)=A0 m= ost of us realize!!! Before understanding this a little better, in an engine out situation,=A0 I= would have set up for best glide at around 120 mph, find a reasonable spot= to land, drop the gear at 500- 1000 ft AGL and put it down. This works for= a Cessna 150 or 172. For a Lancair the first part is right the second is D= EADLY WRONG....Everyone should try this at a very safe altitude. It is shoc= king! I had no idea this was the case!!! Set up best glide at 120 MPH or 106 kts 1000 feet above your imaginary grou= nd level with absolutely no power (flat idle), descend to 500 ft above your= imaginary ground level and drop the gear (flaps if you like) . You are now= slowed to 85-90 mph dragging the wheels and descending at 1000 feet per mi= nute or more. Do this to your imaginary ground level, try to flair the airp= lane and you blow right through it in a 1000 to 1500 feet per minute decent= !!! No kidding. Try and be aggressive with back elevator to make it flair a= nd you will stall and could easily turn it over. TRY THIS ONLY AT A VERY SA= FE ALTITUDE! We are so used to a little power on approach that we really ne= ver experience this until a real emergency happens. Remember it is dramatic= ally worse with a totally dead engine as you have a huge increase in prop d= rag.=20 I believe the procedure should be best glide speed ( I like Gary's 120 MPH)= and then pickup the extra 15-20 knots to short final and drop the gear and= flaps and touch down in the last 10 seconds before the gear/ flap drag ble= ed off the extra 10 -15 knots. You do not want to fly any longer than 10 -1= 5 seconds with a dead engine and gear extended. Not because the airplane wo= nt fly that way, it will. It is because after those 15-20- extra knots are = gone, you can not arrest the decent at the ground. That was totally foreign= to my thinking before this. With the gear down you can not descend steep e= nough to pick up enough speed to flair at the ground. Yikes! A local Legacy driver and friend explained what he learned when initially p= racticing engine out landings in the Legacy. He started his simulations with 160 kts IAS downwind in the pattern (gear a= nd flaps up). After 4 attempts pulling the power and trying to fly differen= t variations of tight patterns dropping gear and flaps in various places he= came to the following conclusion:=20 The only way to get his Legacy on the ground safely from a complete engine = failure in the pattern was to IMMEDIATELY turn and dive for the end of the = runway holding around 135 knots and dropping the gear/flaps only at short f= inal. He said it feels like a very radical move but it is the only way. He = has thousands of hours of HP airplane time and is very experience in the Le= gacy. He admitted he grotesquely over estimated the airplanes ability to ma= ke the runway with NO power. He went on to say that few realize the dramati= c flight characteristic change from low power to no power.=A0 You loose the= small amount of thrust and add a TON of drag.=A0 Each time he turned soone= r and tighter. He also said he would have bought it if he had to do it for = real had he not practiced it several times to truly understand what it take= s to get it down. The story spooked me enough to prove it was true in my 23= 5/320 and he is absolutely right.=20 This is important, our Lancair's absolutely with not round out at the botto= m with no running engine with gear and flaps down, again unless you have th= e precious 15-20 knots extra energy used at the very last moments as it goe= s quickly with wheels down. You trade that extra energy for the flair. No e= xtra speed no flair... I believe all high performance airplanes share this behavior to one degree = or another. I also strongly believe engine out landings can be done success= fully if we better understand how our airplanes fly with a dead engine and = execute the right emergency procedures.=20 IMHO... Sorry for ranting... I would very much like to hear from the LOBO fliers on this subject. I am s= ure this has come up in the training. Randy Snarr N694RS N235/320 --- On Sun, 1/24/10, Gary Edwards wrote: From: Gary Edwards Subject: [LML] Re: Airspeed sensing switch /Auto gear extension / Engine ou= t gear down Issue! To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Sunday, January 24, 2010, 4:07 PM =0A=0A =0A=0A=0A=0AThat is good info=A0for everyone.=A0=A0=0A=A0=0AHowever,= in my 235, 120 MPH=A0is the best glide =0Aspeed.=A0 That equates to 104 kn= ots.=A0 I do not want to be going any =0Afaster=A0in event of an off field = landing, and most likely, I will leave the =0Agear up in that situation.=A0= On a runway, I would use the gear, but unless =0Ait is a long runway, I wi= ll also keep the speed not in excess.=A0 Any speed =0Aabove=A0about 80 MPH = results is a=A0bounced landing and significant nose =0Ahigh attitude with t= he chance of dragging the rudder, and wasted runway behind =0Ame.=0A=A0=0AA= lso, a thought in reference to when to drop the gear.=A0 7 to 10 =0Aseconds= is fine if the plane still has electrical.=A0 But if the dump valve =0Ahas= to be used, that will not be enough time to get the gear down, especially = if =0Athe pilot has to crab the plane one or two directions to lock each or= both mains =0Ain place.=A0 The pilot is going to be a "busy beaver" in the= last 30 seconds =0Aof flight.=0A=A0=0AGary Edwards=0ALNC2=0A=0A ----- Ori= ginal Message ----- =0A From: randy =0A snarr =0A To: lml@lancaironline.= net =0A Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 12:20 =0A PM=0A Subject: [LML] = Airspeed sensing switch =0A /Auto gear extension / Engine out gear down Is= sue!=0A =20 =0A =0A =0A =0A Terrence, Mine is the same as yours only no auto gear =0A down. Only a warning= light and horn for low speed and gear up. I =0A would seriously consider changing your set up for the followin= g reason. =0A This is a bit of a long winded response but it brings = up a vitally =0A important point for the group. =A0Gear and flaps down too =0A early with a dead engine will have di= sasterous consequences every =0A time. With loss of power, gear and flaps should stay up keeping =0A speed = above 120 kts IAS until the last seconds before landing. My gear =0A = down is a count to 7. Everyone should know how many seconds it takes to = =0A get it down and locked as you will only have one shot to get it = right in =0A an emergency. You wont' be able to do that with your ge= ar set =0A up. Many Lancair drivers (myself included until recently) have no =0A id= ea that these how bad these airplanes glide dragging the gear with a =0A = windmilling propeller. That is a deadly mistake. Dragging gear =0A and flaps, you need a st= eep nose down attitude to keep the airspeed at a =0A safe speed. Unf= ortunately, in that regime you can not flair the =0A airplane. When = you try to flair without a little power these airplanes =0A just slo= w down and hit the ground. The situation is much worse if you =0A ar= e heavy.=20 This is very important for every Lancair driver to =0A understand, With a dead engine if =0A the gear and flaps are down too early (any= thing sooner than 10 seconds =0A before ground contact) the incident= will most likely have a tragic =0A outcome. This is absolutely true= . I don't mean to preach =0A but I believe we would still have some go= od friends with us if we all =0A understood this better. We recently= had a fatal crash at my field where =0A an experienced instructor d= ied in a 210 in a similar circumstance which =0A got me thinking abo= ut this.=20 =0A =0A The ONLY way to get down safely on your wheels in our= airplanes is to =0A keep and extra 15 or 20 KTS of energy (over a t= ypical approach) all the =0A way to ground effect and then drop the = gear and flaps and bleed off =0A speed and touch down. That extra en= ergy is used quickly extending the =0A wheels and you will need to b= e touching down when it is gone or you are =0A toast.=20 This applies to me as much as anyone else.. Randy =0A Snarr N694RS --- On Fri, 1/22/10, Terrence O'Neill =0A wro= te: =0A =20 From: =0A Terrence O'Neill Subject: [LML] Re: =0A Airspeed sensing switch needed To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: =0A Friday, January 22, 2010, 3:08 PM =0A Thanks for the info, Randy. =0A I have my airspeed se= nsing switch set a 90 knots, in the gear-up =0A circuit, so that n= o matter where the gear switch is, it can't raise =0A the gear unl= ess the airspeed is greater than 90 knots.=0A Same on landing. =A0= I fi forget to put the gear switch to =0A down, the gear will come= down anyway at 90 knots.=0A The only downside (no pun intended) i= s that should I want to make =0A a gear-su forced landing, I could= n't... and have considered adding a =0A bypass into the circuit.= =0A Any thoughts on that/=0A Terrence=A0=0A L235= /320 N211AL=0A =20 =0A =20 =0A =0A =0A =20 =A0 =0A=0A=0A --0-1528991791-1264477576=:60252 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
All/ Gary,
Good points,
The extra 15 -= 20 knots is what you give away dropping gear and flaps transitioning from = best glide profile to landing configuration with a dead engine.

My = point is that when you are done gliding (at 120mph)  and ready to touc= h down, the extra energy is necessary if you intend to drop gear and flaps = to touchdown .
If a landing is being attempted with no gear, 100 or even= 80-90 mph is good to ground effect, bleed off speed and land on the belly.= I am with you there.

If you have your 120 mph glide and drop the g= ear at 500 or 1000 feet AGL you= are not going to be able to arrest the decent at the ground.  = I was shocked to find this out and almost broke my airplane learning this l= esson. It is absolutely true and it scares me that many, including myself a= re cruising slow (100kts) and low (pattern altitude) dragging gear and flaps = with partial power.
Loss of power at that poing is much much worse than = I and ( I believe)  most of us realize!!!

Before understanding = this a little better, in an engine out situation,  I would have set up= for best glide at around 120 mph, find a reasonable spot to land, drop the= gear at 500- 1000 ft AGL and put it down. This works for a Cessna 150 or 1= 72. For a Lancair the first part is right the second is DEADLY WRONG....Eve= ryone should try this at a very safe altitude. It is shocking! I had no ide= a this was the case!!!

Set up best glide at 120 MPH or 106 kts 1000 = feet above your imaginary ground level with absolutely no power (flat idle)= , descend to 500 ft above your imaginary ground level and drop the gear (fl= aps if you like) . You are now slowed to 85-90 mph dragging the wheels and = descending at 1000 feet per minute or more. Do this to your imaginary ground level, try to flair the airplane and you blow right throu= gh it in a 1000 to 1500 feet per minute decent!!! No kidding. Try and be ag= gressive with back elevator to make it flair and you will stall and could e= asily turn it over. TRY THIS ONLY AT A VERY SAFE ALTITUDE! We are so used t= o a little power on approach that we really never experience this until a r= eal emergency happens. Remember= it is dramatically worse with a totally dead engine as you have a huge inc= rease in prop drag.

I believe the procedure should be best g= lide speed ( I like Gary's 120 MPH) and then pickup the extra 15-20 knots t= o short final and drop the gear and flaps and touch down in the last 10 sec= onds before the gear/ flap drag bleed off the extra 10 -15 knots. You do not want to fly any longer than 1= 0 -15 seconds with a dead engine and gear extended. Not because the airplane wont fly that way, it will. It is because after those 15-20- = extra knots are gone, you can not arrest the decent at the ground. That was= totally foreign to my thinking before this. With the gear down you can not= descend steep enough to pick up enough speed to flair at the ground. Yikes= !

A local Legacy driver and friend explained what he learned when in= itially practicing engine out landings in the Legacy.
He started his sim= ulations with 160 kts IAS downwind in the pattern (gear and flaps up). Afte= r 4 attempts pulling the power and trying to fly different variations of ti= ght patterns dropping gear and flaps in various places he came to the follo= wing conclusion:
The only way to get his Legacy on the ground safely from a = complete engine failure in the pattern was to IMMEDIATELY turn and dive for= the end of the runway holding around 135 knots and dropping the gear/flaps only at short final. He said it feels like a very radical move = but it is the only way. He has thousands of hours of HP airplane time and i= s very experience in the Legacy. He admitted he grotesquely over estimated = the airplanes ability to make the runway with NO power. He went on to say that f= ew realize the dramatic flight characteristic change from low power to no p= ower.  You loose the small amount of thrust and add a TON of drag.&nbs= p; Each time he turned sooner and tighter. He also said he would have bough= t it if he had to do it for real had he not practiced it several times to t= ruly understand what it takes to get it down. The story spooked me enough t= o prove it was true in my 235/320 and he is absolutely right.

This = is important, our Lancair's absolutely with not round out at the bottom wit= h no running engine with gear and flaps down, again unless you have the precious 15-20 knots extra energy used at the very last moments as it = goes quickly with wheels down. You trade that extra energy for the flair. N= o extra speed no flair...

I believe all high performance airplanes s= hare this behavior to one degree or another. I also strongly believe engine= out landings can be done successfully if we better understand how our airp= lanes fly with a dead engine and execute the right emergency procedures.
IMHO...
Sorry for ranting...

I would very much like to hear= from the LOBO fliers on this subject. I am sure this has come up in the tr= aining.

Randy Snarr
N694RS
N235/320


--- On Sun, = 1/24/10, Gary Edwards <gary21sn@hotmail.com> wrote:

From: Gary Edwards <gary21sn@hotmail.com>Subject: [LML] Re: Airspeed sensing switch /Auto gear extension / Engine out gear down Issue!
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Date: Sunday, = January 24, 2010, 4:07 PM

=0A=0A =0A=0A=0A
=0A
That is good info for everyone.  =
=0A
 
=0A
However, in my 235, 120 MPH is the best glide =0Aspeed.  That equates to 104 knots= .  I do not want to be going any =0Afaster in event of an off fie= ld landing, and most likely, I will leave the =0Agear up in that situation.=   On a runway, I would use the gear, but unless =0Ait is a long runway= , I will also keep the speed not in excess.  Any speed =0Aabove a= bout 80 MPH results is a bounced landing and significant nose =0Ahigh = attitude with the chance of dragging the rudder, and wasted runway behind = =0Ame.
=0A
 
=0A
Also, a thought in reference to whe= n to drop the gear.  7 to 10 =0Aseconds is fine if the plane still has= electrical.  But if the dump valve =0Ahas to be used, that will not b= e enough time to get the gear down, especially if =0Athe pilot has to crab = the plane one or two directions to lock each or both mains =0Ain place.&nbs= p; The pilot is going to be a "busy beaver" in the last 30 seconds =0Aof fl= ight.
=0A
 
=0A
Gary Edwards
=0A
LNC2
= =0A
=0A
----- Original Message -----=
=0A
From:<= /b> randy =0A snarr
=0A =0A
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 12:20 =0A PM
=0A
Subject: [LML] Airspeed = sensing switch =0A /Auto gear extension / Engine out gear down Issue!=0A

=0A =0A =0A =0A
Terrence,
Mi= ne is the same as yours only no auto gear =0A down. Only a warning l= ight and horn for low speed and gear up.

I =0A would seriousl= y consider changing your set up for the following reason. =0A This i= s a bit of a long winded response but it brings up a vitally =0A imp= ortant point for the group.

 Gear and flaps down too =0A = early with a dead engine will have disasterous consequences every =0A = time.

With loss of power, gear and flaps should stay up keeping = =0A speed above 120 kts IAS until the last seconds before landing. M= y gear =0A down is a count to 7. Everyone should know how many secon= ds it takes to =0A get it down and locked as you will only have one = shot to get it right in =0A an emergency. You wont' be able to do th= at with your gear set =0A up.

Many Lancair drivers (myself in= cluded until recently) have no =0A idea that these how bad these air= planes glide dragging the gear with a =0A windmilling propeller.
=
That is a deadly mistake. Dragging gear =0A and flaps, you need = a steep nose down attitude to keep the airspeed at a =0A safe speed.= Unfortunately, in that regime you can not flair the =0A airplane. W= hen you try to flair without a little power these airplanes =0A just= slow down and hit the ground. The situation is much worse if you =0A = are heavy.

This is very important for every Lancair driver to =0A= understand,

With a dead e= ngine if =0A the gear and flaps are down too early (anything sooner = than 10 seconds =0A before ground contact) the incident will most li= kely have a tragic =0A outcome. This is absolutely true.
<= br>I don't mean to preach =0A but I believe we would still have some= good friends with us if we all =0A understood this better. We recen= tly had a fatal crash at my field where =0A an experienced instructo= r died in a 210 in a similar circumstance which =0A got me thinking = about this.
=0A
=0A = The ONLY way to get down safely on your wheels in our airplanes is to = =0A keep and extra 15 or 20 KTS of energy (over a typical approach) = all the =0A way to ground effect and then drop the gear and flaps an= d bleed off =0A speed and touch down. That extra energy is used quic= kly extending the =0A wheels and you will need to be touching down w= hen it is gone or you are =0A toast.
This applies to me as much = as anyone else..

Randy =0A Snarr
N694RS

--- On F= ri, 1/22/10, Terrence O'Neill =0A <troneill@charter.net> wrote:
=0A

From: =0A = Terrence O'Neill <troneill@charter.net>
Subject: [LML] Re: =0A = Airspeed sensing switch needed
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Date: = =0A Friday, January 22, 2010, 3:08 PM

=0A
Thanks for the info, Randy. =0A
I hav= e my airspeed sensing switch set a 90 knots, in the gear-up =0A ci= rcuit, so that no matter where the gear switch is, it can't raise =0A = the gear unless the airspeed is greater than 90 knots.
=0A =
Same on landing.  I fi forget to put the gear switch to =0A = down, the gear will come down anyway at 90 knots.
=0A <= div>The only downside (no pun intended) is that should I want to make =0A = a gear-su forced landing, I couldn't... and have considered adding = a =0A bypass into the circuit.
=0A
Any thoughts= on that/
=0A
Terrence 
=0A
L235= /320 N211AL
=0A

=0A

=0A =
=0A
=0A =
=

 




=0A=0A --0-1528991791-1264477576=:60252--