X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 11:10:27 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from web111413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com ([67.195.15.204] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.1) with SMTP id 4096130 for lml@lancaironline.net; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 23:17:50 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=67.195.15.204; envelope-from=randylsnarr@yahoo.com Received: (qmail 61749 invoked by uid 60001); 26 Jan 2010 04:17:13 -0000 DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=sQQuCp5Mv/LFQ964r8a/3yDwbSVjYKrPxYw+SGAe4gqDQt4UMZ60mVQCqCqbI6yeHMRTdtz+ZfIYG34X6iQLW2qrSp1pVqN314FNKPwHukx00QXn4ZFoOCQE5+BHUXhUsLo+sx2peo08YNdDPbwC3A/9A+9Iz6fkBJ5G88vyFDg=; X-Original-Message-ID: <719413.61708.qm@web111413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: JV3OvW0VM1mmSKSPj1hQ5bBiudoeNs18s_t157w0PAAqZAXw4It.7kiFKK1VWeU39KS0q8skHI677.1tQa.JxAmTeHbNzRRtAszWvGNuTtexZfI7by3bHKEYhdTyCB7IERALsrEDoZWYvkvYyLP93WYD04uNQLbwzXIyBf6HQdXtUXCrOEwX.Dw1UK9XSwygcEtNsMvKLoNq4ChfdGjMIl3AXXxWt1W6kAyTWVyM39x_JP58qeanpi1aKkLsi3zulfj8fr9Q6jioNnejFofKekO_4Hd5rCVy7wuFp0arBgyLynRbZHgw.k_jhI6BxtB5wJEViLQkGfa7OLCwXUyoAk_TEyAVlz2ytXMW4oD7qM2RZVd_I0XnjwXdG9_2K4J6wQ-- Received: from [76.8.220.18] by web111413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 25 Jan 2010 20:17:13 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailClassic/9.1.10 YahooMailWebService/0.8.100.260964 X-Original-Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 20:17:13 -0800 (PST) From: randy snarr Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Airspeed sensing switch /Auto gear extension / Engine out gear down Issue! X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-348219118-1264479433=:61708" --0-348219118-1264479433=:61708 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Colyn, Good point, I was speaking to the LNC2 crowd mainly. I think there are some profound di= fferences between the LNC2 and the IV. Size of the wing, gear drag ect... In the=A0 LNC2 you can get the nose up but at the speed they will fly with = a dead engine the issue is you can not arrest the decent... Because of this you have to keep the gear and flaps up until just before to= uch down... Randy S. --- On Mon, 1/25/10, Colyn Case at earthlink wrot= e: From: Colyn Case at earthlink Subject: [LML] Re: Airspeed sensing switch /Auto gear extension / Engine ou= t gear down Issue! To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Monday, January 25, 2010, 7:42 PM =0A=0A =0A =0A=0ARandy, I need to understand your point more =0Athoroughly.= =0AI think just about every landing in my IVP I have =0Athe power all the w= ay back, gear down, flaps full before the flare.=0A=A0=0AIt sounds like you= are saying that the difference =0Abetween idle power and no power is so mu= ch drag that you can't get the nose up =0Abefore you are out of airspeed.= =A0=A0 I guess I don't see how holding off =0Aon gear extension is really g= oing to change what happens in those last few =0Aseconds.=0A=A0=0AI do see = (and have tested) how rocklike the glide =0Ais with everything down and dir= ty.=0A=A0=0AColyn=0A=0A ----- Original Message ----- =0A From: =0A randy= =0A snarr =0A To: lml@lancaironline.net =0A Sent: Saturday, January 23,= 2010 3:20 =0A PM=0A Subject: [LML] Airspeed sensing switch =0A /Auto ge= ar extension / Engine out gear down Issue!=0A =20 =0A =0A =0A =0A Terrence, Mine is the same as yours only no auto gear =0A down. Only a warning= light and horn for low speed and gear up. I =0A would seriously consider changing your set up for the followin= g reason. =0A This is a bit of a long winded response but it brings = up a vitally =0A important point for the group. =A0Gear and flaps down too =0A early with a dead engine will have di= sasterous consequences every =0A time. With loss of power, gear and flaps should stay up keeping =0A speed = above 120 kts IAS until the last seconds before landing. My gear =0A = down is a count to 7. Everyone should know how many seconds it takes to = =0A get it down and locked as you will only have one shot to get it = right in =0A an emergency. You wont' be able to do that with your ge= ar set =0A up. Many Lancair drivers (myself included until recently) have no =0A id= ea that these how bad these airplanes glide dragging the gear with a =0A = windmilling propeller. That is a deadly mistake. Dragging gear =0A and flaps, you need a st= eep nose down attitude to keep the airspeed at a =0A safe speed. Unf= ortunately, in that regime you can not flair the =0A airplane. When = you try to flair without a little power these airplanes =0A just slo= w down and hit the ground. The situation is much worse if you =0A ar= e heavy.=20 This is very important for every Lancair driver to =0A understand, With a dead engine if =0A the gear and flaps are down too early (any= thing sooner than 10 seconds =0A before ground contact) the incident= will most likely have a tragic =0A outcome. This is absolutely true= . I don't mean to preach =0A but I believe we would still have some go= od friends with us if we all =0A understood this better. We recently= had a fatal crash at my field where =0A an experienced instructor d= ied in a 210 in a similar circumstance which =0A got me thinking abo= ut this.=20 =0A =0A The ONLY way to get down safely on your wheels in our= airplanes is to =0A keep and extra 15 or 20 KTS of energy (over a t= ypical approach) all the =0A way to ground effect and then drop the = gear and flaps and bleed off =0A speed and touch down. That extra en= ergy is used quickly extending the =0A wheels and you will need to b= e touching down when it is gone or you are =0A toast.=20 This applies to me as much as anyone else.. Randy =0A Snarr N694RS --- On Fri, 1/22/10, Terrence O'Neill =0A wro= te: =0A =20 From: =0A Terrence O'Neill Subject: [LML] Re: =0A Airspeed sensing switch needed To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: =0A Friday, January 22, 2010, 3:08 PM =0A Thanks for the info, Randy.=0A I have my airspeed sen= sing switch set a 90 knots, in the gear-up =0A circuit, so that no= matter where the gear switch is, it can't raise =0A the gear unle= ss the airspeed is greater than 90 knots.=0A Same on landing. =A0I= fi forget to put the gear switch to =0A down, the gear will come = down anyway at 90 knots.=0A The only downside (no pun intended) is= that should I want to make =0A a gear-su forced landing, I couldn= 't... and have considered adding a =0A bypass into the circuit.=0A= Any thoughts on that/=0A Terrence=A0=0A L235/32= 0 N211AL=0A =20 =0A =20 =0A =0A =0A =20 =0A =0A To:=A0lml@lancaironline.net Date: =0A Thu, 21 Jan 2010 16:53:05 -0500 From:=A0randylsnarr@yahoo.com Subject: =0A [LML] Re: Airspeed sensing switch needed =0A =0A =0A =0A Terrenc= e, I have two sensing switches in my =0A airplane. One used a= s a gear up warning for landing like is =0A being discusse= d, the other is exactly what you described. Both =0A are p= lumbed into the pitot static system and are adjustable =0A = with a screwdriver under the pilot side panel. The squat =0A = switch opens the gear up circuit under 70 kts. I test it often =0A = on take off- I rotate and go gear up while the AS is low and = =0A the gear wont=A0 come up, when the AS hits 80 or so up= they =0A come. I don't think these should be flying witho= ut a gear up =0A squat switch of some kind. I am embarrase= d to admit I have =0A already inadvertently tested mine. T= esting the gear on stands =0A and used the dump valve to d= rop the gear and left the switch =0A up. Started the plane= a few days later and notice the switch =0A in the up posi= tion while sitting idling on the ramp. I almost =0A fainte= d... dropped the switch and closed the dump valve and =0A = then sat and thought about it........Glad I had one installed. =0A = My friend Dick Mitchel was not so lucky. He raised the gear in =0A= front of the hanger and dropped the plane on the ground w= hile =0A it was running. It is way too easy to do. I certi= fied crowd =0A has that point right... Both cost me nothing as my neighbor =0A is in the applianc= e business. He had a shoe box filled with =0A those and he= gave me 2. They are a few ounces of prevention =0A agains= t stupidity of which most of us on rare occasions are =0A = afflicted by... Randy =0A Snarr N694RS 235/320 --- On=A0Mon, 1/18/10, =0A Terrence O'Neill=A0=A0wrote: =0A =20 From: =0A Terrence O'Neill Subject: =0A [LML] Re: Airspeed sensing switch needed To:=A0lml@lancaironline.net Date: =0A Monday, January 18, 2010, 6:43 AM =0A Bill,=0A Lurking because I share = this interest.=0A What are the pros and cons of a simple= airspeed sensing =0A switch that just interrupts the ge= ar-up switch circuit until =0A a selected airspeed ... i= .e. about 90 knots?=0A Terrence=0A L2= 35/320 N211AL=0A =20 =0A =0A On Jan 16, 2010, at 7:28 AM, = Bill Kennedy =0A wrote: =0A =0A I'm going to =0A = build the gear not down warning system suggested by Randy =0A = Stuart in an earlier email. I thought Aircraft Spruce ha= d =0A a airspeed sensing switch, but I couldn't find i= t in their =0A catalog. Can any of you help me find a = source for the =0A pressure switch? I've never had a close call with =0A the gear in three= plus thousand hours of retractable time, =0A but I've= always been a little uneasy with no warning =0A syste= m in my LNC2. I had hoped that I could talk Blue =0A M= ountain Avionics into building a warning system into =0A = their EFIS, but that didn't work out. Randy's system looks =0A = great to me and I'm eager to try it. I've attached Randy's =0A = drawing just in case others might want to revisit the = =0A idea. Thanks -- Bill Kennedy -- For archives and unsub=A0http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.ht= ml =0A=0A=0A --0-348219118-1264479433=:61708 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Colyn,
Good point,
I was speaking to th= e LNC2 crowd mainly. I think there are some profound differences between th= e LNC2 and the IV. Size of the wing, gear drag ect...

In the  L= NC2 you can get the nose up but at the speed they will fly with a dead engi= ne the issue is you can not arrest the decent...
Because of this you hav= e to keep the gear and flaps up until just before touch down...
Randy S.=

--- On Mon, 1/25/10, Colyn Case at earthlink <colyncase@ea= rthlink.net> wrote:

From: Colyn = Case at earthlink <colyncase@earthlink.net>
Subject: [LML] Re: Air= speed sensing switch /Auto gear extension / Engine out gear down Issue!
= To: lml@lancaironline.net
Date: Monday, January 25, 2010, 7:42 PM
=0A=0A =0A =0A=0A
Randy, I need to understand your point more =0Athoroughly.<= /font>
=0A
I think just about ever= y landing in my IVP I have =0Athe power all the way back, gear down, flaps = full before the flare.
=0A
=  
=0A
It sounds like y= ou are saying that the difference =0Abetween idle power and no power is so = much drag that you can't get the nose up =0Abefore you are out of airspeed.=    I guess I don't see how holding off =0Aon gear extension is re= ally going to change what happens in those last few =0Aseconds.=0A
 
=0A
I do see (and have tested) how rocklike the glide = =0Ais with everything down and dirty.
=0A
 
=0A
C= olyn
=0A
=0A
----- Origi= nal Message -----
=0A
From: =0A randy =0A snarr
= =0A =0A
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 3:20 =0A PM=0A
Subject: [LML] Airspeed sensing switch =0A /Auto gear extension / Engine out gea= r down Issue!
=0A

=0A =0A =0A =0A
Terrence,
Mine is the same as yours only no auto gear =0A down= . Only a warning light and horn for low speed and gear up.

I =0A = would seriously consider changing your set up for the following reason.= =0A This is a bit of a long winded response but it brings up a vita= lly =0A important point for the group.

 Gear and flaps d= own too =0A early with a dead engine will have disasterous consequen= ces every =0A time.

With loss of power, gear and flaps should= stay up keeping =0A speed above 120 kts IAS until the last seconds = before landing. My gear =0A down is a count to 7. Everyone should kn= ow how many seconds it takes to =0A get it down and locked as you wi= ll only have one shot to get it right in =0A an emergency. You wont'= be able to do that with your gear set =0A up.

Many Lancair d= rivers (myself included until recently) have no =0A idea that these = how bad these airplanes glide dragging the gear with a =0A windmilli= ng propeller.

That is a deadly mistake. Dragging gear =0A and= flaps, you need a steep nose down attitude to keep the airspeed at a =0A = safe speed. Unfortunately, in that regime you can not flair the =0A = airplane. When you try to flair without a little power these airplane= s =0A just slow down and hit the ground. The situation is much worse= if you =0A are heavy.

This is very important for every Lanc= air driver to =0A understand,

With a dead engine if =0A the gear and flaps are down too early = (anything sooner than 10 seconds =0A before ground contact) the inci= dent will most likely have a tragic =0A outcome. This is absolutely = true.

I don't mean to preach =0A but I believe we woul= d still have some good friends with us if we all =0A understood this= better. We recently had a fatal crash at my field where =0A an expe= rienced instructor died in a 210 in a similar circumstance which =0A = got me thinking about this.
=0A
=0A The ONLY way to get down safely on your wheels in our a= irplanes is to =0A keep and extra 15 or 20 KTS of energy (over a typ= ical approach) all the =0A way to ground effect and then drop the ge= ar and flaps and bleed off =0A speed and touch down. That extra ener= gy is used quickly extending the =0A wheels and you will need to be = touching down when it is gone or you are =0A toast.
This applies= to me as much as anyone else..

Randy =0A Snarr
N694RS
=
--- On Fri, 1/22/10, Terrence O'Neill =0A <troneill@cha= rter.net> wrote:
=0A

From= : =0A Terrence O'Neill <troneill@charter.net>
Subject: [L= ML] Re: =0A Airspeed sensing switch needed
To: lml@lancaironlin= e.net
Date: =0A Friday, January 22, 2010, 3:08 PM

=0A =
Thanks for the info, Randy.=0A =
I have my airspeed sensing switch set a 90 knots, in the gear-up = =0A circuit, so that no matter where the gear switch is, it can't = raise =0A the gear unless the airspeed is greater than 90 knots.=0A
Same on landing.  I fi forget to put the gear sw= itch to =0A down, the gear will come down anyway at 90 knots.=0A
The only downside (no pun intended) is that should I wan= t to make =0A a gear-su forced landing, I couldn't... and have con= sidered adding a =0A bypass into the circuit.
=0A Any thoughts on that/
=0A
Terrence 
=0A =
L235/320 N211AL
=0A

=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A T= o: lm= l@lancaironline.net
Date: =0A Thu, 21 Jan 2010 16:53:05 -= 0500
From: randylsnarr@yahoo.com
Subject: =0A [LML] Re: Air= speed sensing switch needed

=0A =0A =0A =0A

<= /div>
Terrence,
I have two sensing switches in my =0A = airplane. One used as a gear up warning for landing like is =0A= being discussed, the other is exactly what you described.= Both =0A are plumbed into the pitot static system and are= adjustable =0A with a screwdriver under the pilot side pa= nel. The squat =0A switch opens the gear up circuit under = 70 kts. I test it often =0A on take off- I rotate and go g= ear up while the AS is low and =0A the gear wont  com= e up, when the AS hits 80 or so up they =0A come. I don't = think these should be flying without a gear up =0A squat s= witch of some kind. I am embarrased to admit I have =0A al= ready inadvertently tested mine. Testing the gear on stands =0A = and used the dump valve to drop the gear and left the switch =0A = up. Started the plane a few days later and notice the switch = =0A in the up position while sitting idling on the ramp. I= almost =0A fainted... dropped the switch and closed the d= ump valve and =0A then sat and thought about it........Gla= d I had one installed. =0A My friend Dick Mitchel was not = so lucky. He raised the gear in =0A front of the hanger an= d dropped the plane on the ground while =0A it was running= . It is way too easy to do. I certified crowd =0A has that= point right...
Both cost me nothing as my neighbor =0A = is in the appliance business. He had a shoe box filled with =0A = those and he gave me 2. They are a few ounces of prevention =0A = against stupidity of which most of us on rare occasions are = =0A afflicted by...

Randy =0A Snar= r
N694RS
235/320

--- On&= nbsp;Mon, 1/18/10, =0A Terrence O'Neill <tronei= ll@charter.net> <= /span>wrote:
=0A

From: =0A Terrence O'Neill <= troneill@charter.net>
Subject: =0A = [LML] Re: Airspeed sensing switch needed
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Date: =0A Monday, January 18, 2010, 6:43 AM
=0A


=0A=0A=0A=0A --0-348219118-1264479433=:61708--