X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 21:42:39 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.69] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.1) with ESMTP id 4094430 for lml@lancaironline.net; Sun, 24 Jan 2010 21:08:47 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.86.89.69; envelope-from=colyncase@earthlink.net DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=PTSEV6F9hbSXc05BVlcrzihphJBAHMEo3Jm0+RyGuHZPDdk7iEd4uCsqjEuIBRoD; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [216.57.118.190] (helo=ccaselt3) by elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1NZEN9-0002gM-OS for lml@lancaironline.net; Sun, 24 Jan 2010 21:08:12 -0500 X-Original-Message-ID: From: "Colyn Case at earthlink" X-Original-To: "Lancair Mailing List" References: Subject: Re: [LML] Airspeed sensing switch /Auto gear extension / Engine out gear down Issue! X-Original-Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 21:08:10 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0073_01CA9D39.559DEBB0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5843 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-ELNK-Trace: 63d5d3452847f8b1d6dd28457998182d7e972de0d01da9404137aea31d6d7029dc5809705d1f91e3350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.57.118.190 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0073_01CA9D39.559DEBB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Randy, I need to understand your point more thoroughly. I think just about every landing in my IVP I have the power all the way = back, gear down, flaps full before the flare. It sounds like you are saying that the difference between idle power and = no power is so much drag that you can't get the nose up before you are = out of airspeed. I guess I don't see how holding off on gear extension = is really going to change what happens in those last few seconds. I do see (and have tested) how rocklike the glide is with everything = down and dirty. Colyn ----- Original Message -----=20 From: randy snarr=20 To: lml@lancaironline.net=20 Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 3:20 PM Subject: [LML] Airspeed sensing switch /Auto gear extension / Engine = out gear down Issue! Terrence, Mine is the same as yours only no auto gear down. Only a warning = light and horn for low speed and gear up. I would seriously consider changing your set up for the = following reason. This is a bit of a long winded response but it brings = up a vitally important point for the group. Gear and flaps down too early with a dead engine will have = disasterous consequences every time. With loss of power, gear and flaps should stay up keeping speed = above 120 kts IAS until the last seconds before landing. My gear down is = a count to 7. Everyone should know how many seconds it takes to get it = down and locked as you will only have one shot to get it right in an = emergency. You wont' be able to do that with your gear set up. Many Lancair drivers (myself included until recently) have no = idea that these how bad these airplanes glide dragging the gear with a = windmilling propeller. That is a deadly mistake. Dragging gear and flaps, you need a = steep nose down attitude to keep the airspeed at a safe speed. = Unfortunately, in that regime you can not flair the airplane. When you = try to flair without a little power these airplanes just slow down and = hit the ground. The situation is much worse if you are heavy.=20 This is very important for every Lancair driver to understand, With a dead engine if the gear and flaps are down too early = (anything sooner than 10 seconds before ground contact) the incident = will most likely have a tragic outcome. This is absolutely true. I don't mean to preach but I believe we would still have some = good friends with us if we all understood this better. We recently had a = fatal crash at my field where an experienced instructor died in a 210 in = a similar circumstance which got me thinking about this.=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The ONLY way to get down safely on your wheels in our airplanes = is to keep and extra 15 or 20 KTS of energy (over a typical approach) = all the way to ground effect and then drop the gear and flaps and bleed = off speed and touch down. That extra energy is used quickly extending = the wheels and you will need to be touching down when it is gone or you = are toast.=20 This applies to me as much as anyone else.. Randy Snarr N694RS --- On Fri, 1/22/10, Terrence O'Neill = wrote: From: Terrence O'Neill Subject: [LML] Re: Airspeed sensing switch needed To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Friday, January 22, 2010, 3:08 PM Thanks for the info, Randy. I have my airspeed sensing switch set a 90 knots, in the = gear-up circuit, so that no matter where the gear switch is, it can't = raise the gear unless the airspeed is greater than 90 knots. Same on landing. I fi forget to put the gear switch to down, = the gear will come down anyway at 90 knots. The only downside (no pun intended) is that should I want to = make a gear-su forced landing, I couldn't... and have considered adding = a bypass into the circuit. Any thoughts on that/ Terrence=20 L235/320 N211AL -------------------------------------------------------------------- To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 16:53:05 -0500 From: randylsnarr@yahoo.com Subject: [LML] Re: Airspeed sensing switch needed Terrence, I have two sensing switches in my airplane. One used = as a gear up warning for landing like is being discussed, the other is = exactly what you described. Both are plumbed into the pitot static = system and are adjustable with a screwdriver under the pilot side panel. = The squat switch opens the gear up circuit under 70 kts. I test it often = on take off- I rotate and go gear up while the AS is low and the gear = wont come up, when the AS hits 80 or so up they come. I don't think = these should be flying without a gear up squat switch of some kind. I am = embarrased to admit I have already inadvertently tested mine. Testing = the gear on stands and used the dump valve to drop the gear and left the = switch up. Started the plane a few days later and notice the switch in = the up position while sitting idling on the ramp. I almost fainted... = dropped the switch and closed the dump valve and then sat and thought = about it........Glad I had one installed. My friend Dick Mitchel was not = so lucky. He raised the gear in front of the hanger and dropped the = plane on the ground while it was running. It is way too easy to do. I = certified crowd has that point right... Both cost me nothing as my neighbor is in the = appliance business. He had a shoe box filled with those and he gave me = 2. They are a few ounces of prevention against stupidity of which most = of us on rare occasions are afflicted by... Randy Snarr N694RS 235/320 --- On Mon, 1/18/10, Terrence O'Neill = wrote: From: Terrence O'Neill Subject: [LML] Re: Airspeed sensing switch needed To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Monday, January 18, 2010, 6:43 AM Bill, Lurking because I share this interest. What are the pros and cons of a simple airspeed = sensing switch that just interrupts the gear-up switch circuit until a = selected airspeed ... i.e. about 90 knots? Terrence L235/320 N211AL On Jan 16, 2010, at 7:28 AM, Bill Kennedy wrote: I'm going to build the gear not down warning = system suggested by Randy Stuart in an earlier email. I thought Aircraft = Spruce had a airspeed sensing switch, but I couldn't find it in their = catalog. Can any of you help me find a source for the pressure switch? I've never had a close call with the gear in three = plus thousand hours of retractable time, but I've always been a little = uneasy with no warning system in my LNC2. I had hoped that I could talk = Blue Mountain Avionics into building a warning system into their EFIS, = but that didn't work out. Randy's system looks great to me and I'm eager = to try it. I've attached Randy's drawing just in case others might want = to revisit the idea. Thanks -- Bill Kennedy -- For archives and unsub = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0073_01CA9D39.559DEBB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Randy, I need to understand your point = more=20 thoroughly.
I think just about every landing in my = IVP I have=20 the power all the way back, gear down, flaps full before the = flare.
 
It sounds like you are saying that the = difference=20 between idle power and no power is so much drag that you can't get the = nose up=20 before you are out of airspeed.   I guess I don't see how = holding off=20 on gear extension is really going to change what happens in those last = few=20 seconds.
 
I do see (and have tested) how rocklike = the glide=20 is with everything down and dirty.
 
Colyn
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 randy=20 snarr
Sent: Saturday, January 23, = 2010 3:20=20 PM
Subject: [LML] Airspeed sensing = switch=20 /Auto gear extension / Engine out gear down Issue!

Terrence,
Mine is the same as yours only no = auto gear=20 down. Only a warning light and horn for low speed and gear = up.

I=20 would seriously consider changing your set up for the following = reason.=20 This is a bit of a long winded response but it brings up a = vitally=20 important point for the group.

 Gear and flaps down = too=20 early with a dead engine will have disasterous consequences = every=20 time.

With loss of power, gear and flaps should stay up = keeping=20 speed above 120 kts IAS until the last seconds before landing. = My gear=20 down is a count to 7. Everyone should know how many seconds it = takes to=20 get it down and locked as you will only have one shot to get it = right in=20 an emergency. You wont' be able to do that with your gear set=20 up.

Many Lancair drivers (myself included until recently) = have no=20 idea that these how bad these airplanes glide dragging the gear = with a=20 windmilling propeller.

That is a deadly mistake. Dragging = gear=20 and flaps, you need a steep nose down attitude to keep the = airspeed at a=20 safe speed. Unfortunately, in that regime you can not flair the=20 airplane. When you try to flair without a little power these = airplanes=20 just slow down and hit the ground. The situation is much worse = if you=20 are heavy.

This is very important for every Lancair = driver to=20 understand,

With a dead = engine if=20 the gear and flaps are down too early (anything sooner than 10 = seconds=20 before ground contact) the incident will most likely have a = tragic=20 outcome. This is absolutely true.

I don't mean to = preach=20 but I believe we would still have some good friends with us if = we all=20 understood this better. We recently had a fatal crash at my = field where=20 an experienced instructor died in a 210 in a similar = circumstance which=20 got me thinking about this.
The ONLY way to get down safely on your wheels in our airplanes = is to=20 keep and extra 15 or 20 KTS of energy (over a typical approach) = all the=20 way to ground effect and then drop the gear and flaps and bleed = off=20 speed and touch down. That extra energy is used quickly = extending the=20 wheels and you will need to be touching down when it is gone or = you are=20 toast.
This applies to me as much as anyone = else..

Randy=20 Snarr
N694RS

--- On Fri, 1/22/10, Terrence O'Neill=20 <troneill@charter.net> wrote:

From:=20 Terrence O'Neill <troneill@charter.net>
Subject: = [LML] Re:=20 Airspeed sensing switch needed
To: = lml@lancaironline.net
Date:=20 Friday, January 22, 2010, 3:08 PM

Thanks for the info, Randy.
I have my airspeed sensing switch set a 90 knots, in the = gear-up=20 circuit, so that no matter where the gear switch is, it can't = raise=20 the gear unless the airspeed is greater than 90 knots.
Same on landing.  I fi forget to put the gear switch = to=20 down, the gear will come down anyway at 90 knots.
The only downside (no pun intended) is that should I want = to make=20 a gear-su forced landing, I couldn't... and have considered = adding a=20 bypass into the circuit.
Any thoughts on that/
Terrence 
L235/320 N211AL



To: lml@lancaironline.net
Dat= e:=20 Thu, 21 Jan 2010 16:53:05 -0500
From: randylsnarr@yahoo.com
Sub= ject:=20 [LML] Re: Airspeed sensing switch needed

=
Terrence,
I have two sensing switches in = my=20 airplane. One used as a gear up warning for landing = like is=20 being discussed, the other is exactly what you = described. Both=20 are plumbed into the pitot static system and are = adjustable=20 with a screwdriver under the pilot side panel. The = squat=20 switch opens the gear up circuit under 70 kts. I test = it often=20 on take off- I rotate and go gear up while the AS is = low and=20 the gear wont  come up, when the AS hits 80 or so = up they=20 come. I don't think these should be flying without a = gear up=20 squat switch of some kind. I am embarrased to admit I = have=20 already inadvertently tested mine. Testing the gear on = stands=20 and used the dump valve to drop the gear and left the = switch=20 up. Started the plane a few days later and notice the = switch=20 in the up position while sitting idling on the ramp. I = almost=20 fainted... dropped the switch and closed the dump = valve and=20 then sat and thought about it........Glad I had one = installed.=20 My friend Dick Mitchel was not so lucky. He raised the = gear in=20 front of the hanger and dropped the plane on the = ground while=20 it was running. It is way too easy to do. I certified = crowd=20 has that point right...
Both cost me nothing as my = neighbor=20 is in the appliance business. He had a shoe box filled = with=20 those and he gave me 2. They are a few ounces of = prevention=20 against stupidity of which most of us on rare = occasions are=20 afflicted by...

Randy=20 Snarr
N694RS
235/320

--- On Mon, = 1/18/10,=20 Terrence O'Neill <troneill@charter.net><= /B> wrote:

From:=20 Terrence O'Neill <troneill@charter.net>
S= ubject:=20 [LML] Re: Airspeed sensing switch needed
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Dat= e:=20 Monday, January 18, 2010, 6:43 AM

Bill,
Lurking because I share this interest.
What are the pros and cons of a simple airspeed = sensing=20 switch that just interrupts the gear-up switch = circuit until=20 a selected airspeed ... i.e. about 90 knots?
Terrence
L235/320 N211AL

On Jan 16, 2010, at 7:28 AM, Bill Kennedy=20 wrote:

I'm going to=20 build the gear not down warning system suggested = by Randy=20 Stuart in an earlier email. I thought Aircraft = Spruce had=20 a airspeed sensing switch, but I couldn't find it = in their=20 catalog. Can any of you help me find a source for = the=20 pressure switch?

I've never had a close = call with=20 the gear in three plus thousand hours of = retractable time,=20 but I've always been a little uneasy with no = warning=20 system in my LNC2. I had hoped that I could talk = Blue=20 Mountain Avionics into building a warning system = into=20 their EFIS, but that didn't work out. Randy's = system looks=20 great to me and I'm eager to try it. I've attached = Randy's=20 drawing just in case others might want to revisit = the=20 idea.

Thanks -- Bill = Kennedy
<Gear=20 Warning 1.JPG>--
For archives and = unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html




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