X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 15:20:21 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from web111406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com ([67.195.15.162] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.1) with SMTP id 4093308 for lml@lancaironline.net; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 14:49:59 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=67.195.15.162; envelope-from=randylsnarr@yahoo.com Received: (qmail 89112 invoked by uid 60001); 23 Jan 2010 19:49:22 -0000 DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=a0n7S5o6ALMI6OSMQeDEvvYnews6z4gukigEDGe8JqppHmK8IiD6MIwqm+uwU6C75zwsbtZh7HhBtfdkeuZTdX0lkYvJCPSzcA+c37/qf8qK+x1X1xGjTwgesszEacNuXgM6tbOJgTR5LSqU5Yk5Zjew9uxS3tOV1S6WHM6nYa4=; X-Original-Message-ID: <699397.88081.qm@web111406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: FMoORkIVM1mwdQwUyKee5e6smioZjOpS1gEvskiVjUoAdbHNRZqKAqkKWlYmapSkb2APWYFnzX9yM2UCQGjjyJ3LtdGk0w.kNsIEhbfcCZ9uG5CmvDzyQx3uYp9XZRxXUyDjLHGkVjzu5zrB5XnAG7SbHGb.fHQz6RUeTD6VjtHwdc_H3X7eFBG0kaJWWiOoddYXwq10KM2RVaSgz1HB2Nid1QgP1TkSLQXW2QkvILjpTPtfeB0Zl_tkwpe_8BXQ7RqCaQqnSOpxMiKyJ3fSYJZsEpZzH9OYkdm_nvMuQi0lEV0G_bMPoJP5QQ2abvtOy1ILCUYtpBQQ2HJifwS_Gpu5JOmfBoEHmX75WLCUnutqJ6IKyKgxpNOql_5zBfo7HQ-- Received: from [76.8.220.18] by web111406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 23 Jan 2010 11:49:22 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailClassic/9.1.10 YahooMailWebService/0.8.100.260964 X-Original-Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 11:49:22 -0800 (PST) From: randy snarr Subject: Airspeed sensing switch /Auto gear extension / Engine out gear down Issue! X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1278813944-1264276162=:88081" --0-1278813944-1264276162=:88081 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Terrence, Mine is the same as yours only no auto gear down. Only a warning light and = horn for low speed and gear up. I would seriously consider changing your set up for the following reason. T= his is a bit of a long winded response but it brings up a vitally important= point for the group. =A0Gear and flaps down too early with a dead engine will have disasterous c= onsequences every time. With loss of power, gear and flaps should stay up keeping speed above 120 k= ts IAS until the last seconds before landing. My gear down is a count to 7.= Everyone should know how many seconds it takes to get it down and locked a= s you will only have one shot to get it right in an emergency. You wont' be= able to do that with your gear set up. Many Lancair drivers (myself included until recently) have no idea that the= se how bad these airplanes glide dragging the gear with a windmilling prope= ller. That is a deadly mistake. Dragging gear and flaps, you need a steep nose do= wn attitude to keep the airspeed at a safe speed. Unfortunately, in that re= gime you can not flair the airplane. When you try to flair without a little= power these airplanes just slow down and hit the ground. The situation is = much worse if you are heavy.=20 This is very important for every Lancair driver to understand, With a dead engine if the gear and flaps are down too early (anything soone= r than 10 seconds before ground contact) the incident will most likely have= a tragic outcome. This is absolutely true. I don't mean to preach but I believe we would still have some good friends = with us if we all understood this better. We recently had a fatal crash at = my field where an experienced instructor died in a 210 in a similar circums= tance which got me thinking about this.=20 The ONLY way to get down safely on your wheels in our airplanes is to keep = and extra 15 or 20 KTS of energy (over a typical approach) all the way to g= round effect and then drop the gear and flaps and bleed off speed and touch= down. That extra energy is used quickly extending the wheels and you will = need to be touching down when it is gone or you are toast.=20 This applies to me as much as anyone else.. Randy Snarr N694RS --- On Fri, 1/22/10, Terrence O'Neill wrote: From: Terrence O'Neill Subject: [LML] Re: Airspeed sensing switch needed To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Friday, January 22, 2010, 3:08 PM Thanks for the info, Randy.I have my airspeed sensing switch set a 90 knots= , in the gear-up circuit, so that no matter where the gear switch is, it ca= n't raise the gear unless the airspeed is greater than 90 knots.Same on lan= ding. =A0I fi forget to put the gear switch to down, the gear will come dow= n anyway at 90 knots.The only downside (no pun intended) is that should I w= ant to make a gear-su forced landing, I couldn't... and have considered add= ing a bypass into the circuit.Any thoughts on that/Terrence=A0L235/320 N211= AL To:=A0lml@lancaironline.net Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 16:53:05 -0500 From:=A0randylsnarr@yahoo.com Subject: [LML] Re: Airspeed sensing switch needed Terrence, I have two sensing switches in my airplane. One used as a gear up warning f= or landing like is being discussed, the other is exactly what you described= . Both are plumbed into the pitot static system and are adjustable with a s= crewdriver under the pilot side panel. The squat switch opens the gear up c= ircuit under 70 kts. I test it often on take off- I rotate and go gear up w= hile the AS is low and the gear wont=A0 come up, when the AS hits 80 or so = up they come. I don't think these should be flying without a gear up squat = switch of some kind. I am embarrased to admit I have already inadvertently = tested mine. Testing the gear on stands and used the dump valve to drop the= gear and left the switch up. Started the plane a few days later and notice= the switch in the up position while sitting idling on the ramp. I almost f= ainted... dropped the switch and closed the dump valve and then sat and tho= ught about it........Glad I had one installed. My friend Dick Mitchel was not so lucky. He raised the gear in front of the hanger and dropped th= e plane on the ground while it was running. It is way too easy to do. I cer= tified crowd has that point right... Both cost me nothing as my neighbor is in the appliance business. He had a = shoe box filled with those and he gave me 2. They are a few ounces of preve= ntion against stupidity of which most of us on rare occasions are afflicted= by... Randy Snarr N694RS 235/320 --- On=A0Mon, 1/18/10, Terrence O'Neill=A0=A0wrote: From: Terrence O'Neill Subject: [LML] Re: Airspeed sensing switch needed To:=A0lml@lancaironline.net Date: Monday, January 18, 2010, 6:43 AM Bill,Lurking because I share this interest.What are the pros and cons of a = simple airspeed sensing switch that just interrupts the gear-up switch circ= uit until a selected airspeed ... i.e. about 90 knots?TerrenceL235/320 N211= AL On Jan 16, 2010, at 7:28 AM, Bill Kennedy wrote: I'm going to build the gear not down warning system suggested by Randy Stua= rt in an earlier email. I thought Aircraft Spruce had a airspeed sensing sw= itch, but I couldn't find it in their catalog. Can any of you help me find = a source for the pressure switch? I've never had a close call with the gear in three plus thousand hours of r= etractable time, but I've always been a little uneasy with no warning syste= m in my LNC2. I had hoped that I could talk Blue Mountain Avionics into bui= lding a warning system into their EFIS, but that didn't work out. Randy's s= ystem looks great to me and I'm eager to try it. I've attached Randy's draw= ing just in case others might want to revisit the idea. Thanks -- Bill Kennedy -- For archives and unsub=A0http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.ht= ml =0A=0A=0A --0-1278813944-1264276162=:88081 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Terrence,
Mine is the same as yours only n= o auto gear down. Only a warning light and horn for low speed and gear up.<= br>
I would seriously consider changing your set up for the following re= ason. This is a bit of a long winded response but it brings up a vitally im= portant point for the group.

 Gear and flaps down too early wit= h a dead engine will have disasterous consequences every time.

With = loss of power, gear and flaps should stay up keeping speed above 120 kts IA= S until the last seconds before landing. My gear down is a count to 7. Ever= yone should know how many seconds it takes to get it down and locked as you= will only have one shot to get it right in an emergency. You wont' be able= to do that with your gear set up.

Many Lancair drivers (myself incl= uded until recently) have no idea that these how bad these airplanes glide dragging the gear with a windmilling propeller.

That is a deadly mi= stake. Dragging gear and flaps, you need a steep nose down attitude to keep= the airspeed at a safe speed. Unfortunately, in that regime you can not fl= air the airplane. When you try to flair without a little power these airpla= nes just slow down and hit the ground. The situation is much worse if you a= re heavy.

This is very important for every Lancair driver to unders= tand,

With a dead engine if the g= ear and flaps are down too early (anything sooner than 10 seconds before gr= ound contact) the incident will most likely have a tragic outcome. This is = absolutely true.

I don't mean to preach but I believe we woul= d still have some good friends with us if we all understood this better. We= recently had a fatal crash at my field where an experienced instructor die= d in a 210 in a similar circumstance which got me thinking about this.
The ONLY way to get down safel= y on your wheels in our airplanes is to keep and extra 15 or 20 KTS of ener= gy (over a typical approach) all the way to ground effect and then drop the= gear and flaps and bleed off speed and touch down. That extra energy is us= ed quickly extending the wheels and you will need to be touching down when = it is gone or you are toast.
This applies to me as much as anyone else.= .

Randy Snarr
N694RS

--- On Fri, 1/22/10, Terrence O'Ne= ill <troneill@charter.net> wrote:

From: Terrence O'Neill <troneill@charter.net>
Subject: [LM= L] Re: Airspeed sensing switch needed
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Date:= Friday, January 22, 2010, 3:08 PM

Th= anks for the info, Randy.
I have my airspeed sensing switch set a 90 knots, in the gear-up circuit, so that no matter where the gear switch is,= it can't raise the gear unless the airspeed is greater than 90 knots.
Same on landing.  I fi forget to put the gear switch to down, th= e gear will come down anyway at 90 knots.
The only downside (no p= un intended) is that should I want to make a gear-su forced landing, I coul= dn't... and have considered adding a bypass into the circuit.
Any= thoughts on that/
Terrence 
L235/320 N211AL
=



To: lml@lanca= ironline.net
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 16:53:05 -0500
From: randylsnarr@yahoo.com
Subject: [LML] Re: Airspeed= sensing switch needed

Terrence,
I have t= wo sensing switches in my airplane. One used as a gear up warning for landing like is being discussed, the other i= s exactly what you described. Both are plumbed into the pitot static system= and are adjustable with a screwdriver under the pilot side panel. The squa= t switch opens the gear up circuit under 70 kts. I test it often on take of= f- I rotate and go gear up while the AS is low and the gear wont  come= up, when the AS hits 80 or so up they come. I don't think these should be = flying without a gear up squat switch of some kind. I am embarrased to admi= t I have already inadvertently tested mine. Testing the gear on stands and = used the dump valve to drop the gear and left the switch up. Started the pl= ane a few days later and notice the switch in the up position while sitting= idling on the ramp. I almost fainted... dropped the switch and closed the = dump valve and then sat and thought about it........Glad I had one installe= d. My friend Dick Mitchel was not so lucky. He raised the gear in front of the hanger and dropped the plane on the ground while it was runni= ng. It is way too easy to do. I certified crowd has that point right...
= Both cost me nothing as my neighbor is in the appliance business. He had a = shoe box filled with those and he gave me 2. They are a few ounces of preve= ntion against stupidity of which most of us on rare occasions are afflicted= by...

Randy Snarr
N694RS
235/320

--- On Mon, 1/18/10, Terrence O'Neill <troneill@charter.net> wrote:

From: Terrence O'Neill <troneill@charter.net>= ;
Subject: [LML] Re: Airspeed sensing switch needed
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Date: Monday, January 18, 2010, = 6:43 AM

Bill,
Lurking because I shar= e this interest.
What are the pros and cons of a simple airspeed = sensing switch that just interrupts the gear-up switch circuit until a sele= cted airspeed ... i.e. about 90 knots?
Terrence
L235/32= 0 N211AL

On Jan 16, 2010, at 7:28 AM, Bill Kennedy = wrote:

I'm going to = build the gear not down warning system suggested by Randy Stuart in an earl= ier email. I thought Aircraft Spruce had a airspeed sensing switch, but I c= ouldn't find it in their catalog. Can any of you help me find a source for = the pressure switch?

I've never had a close call with the gear in th= ree plus thousand hours of retractable time, but I've always been a little = uneasy with no warning system in my LNC2. I had hoped that I could talk Blu= e Mountain Avionics into building a warning system into their EFIS, but tha= t didn't work out. Randy's system looks great to me and I'm eager to try it= . I've attached Randy's drawing just in case others might want to revisit t= he idea.

Thanks -- Bill Kennedy
<Gear Warning 1.JPG>--
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