X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 08:01:03 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from imr-ma06.mx.aol.com ([64.12.78.142] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.1) with ESMTP id 4081837 for lml@lancaironline.net; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 19:40:28 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.12.78.142; envelope-from=Sky2high@aol.com Received: from imo-ma04.mx.aol.com (imo-ma04.mx.aol.com [64.12.78.139]) by imr-ma06.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id o0E0doCY013580 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 19:39:50 -0500 Received: from Sky2high@aol.com by imo-ma04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v42.5.) id q.cbd.58565d26 (37072) for ; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 19:39:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtprly-dc01.mx.aol.com (smtprly-dc01.mx.aol.com [205.188.170.1]) by cia-db05.mx.aol.com (v127.7) with ESMTP id MAILCIADB056-d1c44b4e67ca1a0; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 19:39:45 -0500 Received: from magic-m06.mail.aol.com (magic-m06.mail.aol.com [172.20.29.2]) by smtprly-dc01.mx.aol.com (v127.7) with ESMTP id MAILSMTPRLYDC015-d1c44b4e67ca1a0; Wed, 13 Jan 2010 19:39:38 -0500 From: sky2high@aol.com X-Original-Message-ID: <1703c.4d948ccd.387fc1ca@aol.com> X-Original-Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 19:39:38 EST Subject: Re: [LML] Re: In Flight Engine Fire Extinguishers X-Original-To: lml@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_1703c.4d948ccd.387fc1ca_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 9.5 sub 155 X-AOL-ORIG-IP: 67.175.242.202 X-AOL-IP: 172.20.29.2 X-Spam-Flag:NO X-AOL-SENDER: Sky2high@aol.com --part1_1703c.4d948ccd.387fc1ca_boundary Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="part1_1703c.4d948ccd.387fc1ca_rel_boundary" --part1_1703c.4d948ccd.387fc1ca_rel_boundary Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="1703c.4d948ccd_alt_bound" --1703c.4d948ccd_alt_bound Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en Rob,=20 =20 Thanks for the correction on the way Halon suppresses a fire. I.E. Every= =20 computer room is typically equipped with a Halon system so the people can= =20 escape while still drawing a breath and the Halon does not damage electro= nic=20 equipment. I have a small Halon extinguisher in my cockpit for the=20 reasons you mention (I should have a smoke hood, too).=20 =20 Scott =20 =20 In a message dated 1/13/2010 12:16:45 P.M. Central Standard Time, =20 rehbinc@aol.com writes: For the reasons Scott stated, I think Halon is a poor choice for this=20 application. It will probably knock the fire down initially, but fire is= likely=20 to reignite from the residual heat as soon as the Halon is flushed out of= =20 the engine compartment. If you want an engine fire system, I would=20 recommend a dry chemical agent.=20 =20 I have personally investigated numerous marine engine room fires where=20 Halon or CO2 were used to extinguish the fire, only to have the doors lef= t=20 open, or reopened too early by curious crewmen. The fire is quickly knock= ed=20 down, but with the addition of fresh air, it quickly reignites and burns= out=20 of control as there is no effective suppression system left to utilize.= The=20 cowl inlet on you aircraft will ventilate the engine compartment much=20 faster than an open door on an engine room. =20 Halon is primarily used for inhabited spaces where you don't want the=20 occupants to stop living. Otherwise, CO2 is the cheaper effective choice.= The=20 only reason I can see to use halon over CO2 outside of the cabin in an=20 airplane is that you don't need nearly as much, hence it weighs less.=20 =20 For what it is worth, Halon differs from CO2 in that it does not deprive= =20 the fire of O2. Instead, it chemically bonds with the free radicals which= =20 are part of the chemical chain reaction of the combustion process. This= is=20 why Halon can be used in confined spaces with people. CO2 lowers the O2= =20 concentration and suffocates the fire just like it suffocates animal life= .=20 Pilots generally crash shortly after they die, so if you want to use Halo= n, put=20 it in the cabin and keep the windows closed. =20 Rob =20 =20 =20 In a message dated 01/13/10 10:15:46 Eastern Standard Time, sky2high =20 writes: =20 Valin, =20 Most engine compartment fires are from an oil or fuel leak. If the engin= e=20 continues to run, ignition sources from heat (i.e. exhaust pipes) still= =20 exist. Air is plentiful and flammable material may still be available -= fuel=20 can be shut off, oil cannot. So, even though you have a fire suppression= =20 system, the engine must be stopped and fuel to the engine compartment mus= t=20 be shut off before the fire can be extinguished. =20 =20 Halon deprives a fire of O2 but a Legacy descending at a high rate of=20 speed will flush out the Halon as soon as it is released. Perhaps too mu= ch air=20 will upset the A/F ratio and kill the fire. Remember that ground bound= =20 applications generally assume that the vehicle will quickly come to a sto= p=20 thus increasing the effectiveness of a Halon type suppression system. =20 Hmmmmm, no fuel shutoff in a car except for killing power to the fuel pum= p. =20 The system would work perfectly for a fire whilst taxiing. =20 Scott Krueger =20 PS The standard 300 series fuel shutoff is at the aft bottom of the heade= r=20 tank. For me, operating solo, that would require loosening the shoulder= =20 straps, leaning forward and way over to the right to reach the shut off= -=20 thus losing all flight visual reference. The following aerobatic maneuv= er=20 could be interesting while I must quickly sit up, recover and re-tighten= the=20 belts - hoping that the fire will blow itself out. Ahh, fire is bad. =20 =20 In a message dated 1/13/2010 7:20:14 A.M. Central Standard Time, =20 thorn@starflight.aero writes: =20 Hey LML gang,=20 As part of our risk management strategy, we want to install an engine fir= e=20 extinguishing system in our Legacy under construction. We=E2=80=99ve zer= oed in=20 on this Halon 1301 based system from Safecraft. See screen shot from=20 Aircraft Spruce=E2=80=99s website: =20 We=E2=80=99d appreciate comments and advice from the community regarding= choice of=20 systems and installation recommendations. Some specific questions are:= =20 =C2=B7 Would a single 5 lb bottle provide enough Halon concentra= tion=20 to extinguish an in-flight fire?=20 =C2=B7 Do we need to route discharge lines to the cowling inlets= to=20 ensure we=E2=80=99re getting the Halon throughout the compartment when di= scharged for=20 a fire?=20 =C2=B7 Has anyone had an engine fire that was successfully=20 extinguished in flight?=20 =C2=B7 We=E2=80=99re trying to eliminate mechanical connections= to the=20 instrument panel to make it easy to remove for maintenance (eg. No push= pull=20 cables, etc.). Anyone have experience with setting up for electrically= =20 actuating a system?=20 =C2=B7 Etc. Thanks,=20 Valin Thorn=20 Legacy=20 Houston, Texas=20 Starflight, Inc.=20 1702 Emerald Lake Ct,=20 Houston, TX 77062 281.486.4663=20 _http://www.starflight.aero/legacy_ (http://www.starflight.aero/legacy) = =20 =20 --1703c.4d948ccd_alt_bound Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en <= FONT id=3Drole_document color=3D#000000 size=3D2 face=3DArial>
Rob,
 
Thanks for the correction on the way Halon suppresses a fire.&nb= sp;=20 I.E. Every computer room is typically equipped with a Halon syst= em so=20 the people can escape while still drawing a breath and the Halon does= not=20 damage electronic equipment.  I have a small Halon extinguisher in my= =20 cockpit for the reasons you mention (I should have a smoke hood,=20 too). 
 
Scott
 
In a message dated 1/13/2010 12:16:45 P.M. Central Standard Time,=20 rehbinc@aol.com writes:
For the reasons Scott stated, I think= Halon is a=20 poor choice for this application. It will probably knock the fire down= =20 initially, but fire is likely to reignite from the residual heat as= soon=20 as the Halon is flushed out of the engine compartment. If you want an en= gine=20 fire system, I would recommend a dry chemical agent.
 
I have personally investigated numerous= marine=20 engine room fires where Halon or CO2 were used to extinguish the fire,= only to=20 have the doors left open, or reopened too early by curious crewmen. The= fire=20 is quickly knocked down, but with the addition of fresh air, it quickly= =20 reignites and burns out of control as there is no effective suppression= system=20 left to utilize. The cowl inlet on you aircraft will ventilate the engin= e=20 compartment much faster than an open door on an engine room.
 
Halon is primarily used for inhabited= spaces=20 where you don't want the occupants to stop living. Otherwise,= CO2 is=20 the cheaper effective choice. The only reason I can see to use halon ove= r CO2=20 outside of the cabin in an airplane is that you don't need nearly as muc= h,=20 hence it weighs less.
 
For what it is worth, Halon differs fro= m CO2 in=20 that it does not deprive the fire of O2. Instead, it chemically bonds wi= th the=20 free radicals which are part of the chemical chain reaction of the combu= stion=20 process. This is why Halon can be used in confined spaces with people.= CO2=20 lowers the O2 concentration and suffocates the fire just like it suffoca= tes=20 animal life. Pilots generally crash shortly after they die, so if you wa= nt to=20 use Halon, put it in the cabin and keep the windows closed.
 
Rob
 
 
 
In a message dated 01/13/10 10:15:46 Eastern Standard Time, sky2hig= h=20 writes:
Valin,
 
Most engine compartment fires are from an oil or fuel leak. = If=20 the engine continues to run, ignition sources from heat (i.e. exh= aust=20 pipes) still exist.  Air is plentiful and flammable material may= still=20 be available - fuel can be shut off, oil cannot.  So, even though= you=20 have a fire suppression system, the engine must be stopped and fu= el to=20 the engine compartment must be shut off before the fire can be=20 extinguished. 
 
Halon deprives a fire of O2 but a Legacy descending at a hig= h rate=20 of speed will flush out the Halon as soon as it is released.  Per= haps=20 too much air will upset the A/F ratio and kill the fire.  Remembe= r=20 that ground bound applications generally assume=20 that the vehicle will quickly come to a stop thus incre= asing=20 the effectiveness of a Halon type suppression system.  Hmmmm= m, no=20 fuel shutoff in a car except for killing power to the fuel pump.<= /DIV>
 
The system would work perfectly for a fire whilst taxiing.
 
Scott Krueger
 
PS The standard 300 series fuel shutoff is at the aft bottom of= the=20 header tank.  For me, operating solo, that would requir= e=20 loosening the shoulder straps, leaning forward and way over to th= e=20 right to reach the shut off - thus losing all flight visual=20 reference.   The following aerobatic maneuver could be inter= esting=20 while I must quickly sit up, recover and re-tighten the belts -= hoping=20 that the fire will blow itself out.  Ahh, fire is bad.
 
In a message dated 1/13/2010 7:20:14 A.M. Central Standard Time,= =20 thorn@starflight.aero writes:

Hey LML=20 gang,

 

As part=20 of our risk management strategy, we want to install an engine fire= =20 extinguishing system in our Legacy under construction.  We=E2= =80=99ve zeroed=20 in on this Halon 1301 based system from Safecraft.  See screen= shot=20 from Aircraft Spruce=E2=80=99s website:

 

 

We=E2=80=99d=20 appreciate comments and advice from the community regarding choice= of=20 systems and installation recommendations.  Some specific questi= ons=20 are:

 

=C2=B7Would a=20 single 5 lb bottle provide enough Halon concentration to extinguish= an=20 in-flight fire?

=C2=B7Do we=20 need to route discharge lines to the cowling inlets to ensure we=E2= =80=99re=20 getting the Halon throughout the compartment when discharged for a= =20 fire?

=C2=B7Has=20 anyone had an engine fire that was successfully extinguished in=20 flight?

=C2=B7We=E2=80=99re=20 trying to eliminate mechanical connections to the instrument panel= to make=20 it easy to remove for maintenance (eg. No push pull cables, etc.).&n= bsp;=20 Anyone have experience with setting up for electrically actuating a= =20 system?

=C2=B7Etc.

Thanks,

 

Valin=20 Thorn

 

Legacy

Houston,=20 Texas

 

 

 

Starflight,=20 Inc.

1702=20 Emerald Lake Ct,

Houston,=20 TX 77062

281.486.4663

http://www.starflight.aero/lega= cy

3D"Starflight

 

 
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