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Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 16:03:31 -0400
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From:  <troneill@charter.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] stalling a plane
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Amen to that for Bill. =20
After  first learning in Cubs and Porterfields and Aeroncas from some WWII =
jocks in 1946... with many, many stalls from all sorts of entries, and espe=
cially right after takeoff... and a few years later after 4 years flying Na=
vy SNJs and P2Vs, I thought I understood stalls.  Then I bought Waco's last=
 plane and began modifying it, and realized I needed to know what it was do=
ing afterwards, so I made myself a simple AOA vane and put it on the left w=
ing in my field of vision.  After spending a hour playing with it in slow f=
light I learned I didn't really understand the pilot-stall relationship... =
and had a ball after stallingit to mark the stall angle on the AOA,a nd the=
n flying around for an hour with the wing just a degree or so below stall, =
and with the wing first stalled and then quickly unstalled, over and over..=
. and in all sorts of attitudes.  And I realized that at high stalled angle=
s I was also stalling the horizontal tail! ... I tufted it to confirm that.=
  I noted the slow nose-down pitch when the H-tail stalled.  So then I adde=
d slots to the H-tail (to delay it's stall another 10-15 degrees) and found=
 I could then get very fast unstalling pitch-dpwn from steep stalls.  It ha=
d never occurred to me before about the H-tail stalling.
Anyway, these are a few of my comments about stalling and AOAs,a nd why I h=
ave put AOA vanes on every one of my planes since.
On my 235/320 I read all the CAFE and other pro-test pilot reports and note=
d the slow unstalling reported, so as I was finishing it up (this kit No. 1=
1 with the small tail)  I designed and added my 'spats', which are 2-positi=
on slots, to the H-tail, and they seem to preserve the unstalling ability o=
f the H-tail... perhaps at the cost of a few mph cruise.  Still testing bot=
h.
I agree with Bill's comments about eh FAA not 'getting it' about stalls, ha=
ving talked to their guys in local and regional offices, and even to the ma=
in safety guy many years ago (under Najeeb Halaby)...  They want a gage to =
read out on the panel, where you should NOT be looking during base and fina=
l approach... and they're not impressed by the Navy' switch to AOAs in 1956=
, cutting their landing accident rate in half the very first year.
I'mnow  personally leery when flying without an AOA, but with one on the wi=
ng don;t think twice about steep banks on final, watching the AOA.  No swea=
t.
This is probably not of muich interest to the very experienced pilots who k=
now their planes... but maybe the  new guys flying these 'glass slippers' w=
ill be interested, and consider adding an AOA.
Terrence
L235/320 N211AL
---- marv@lancair.net wrote:=20
>=20
> Posted for "Bill Maddox" <reddog@smwireless.net>:
>=20
>  =20
>   I see this as a problem not with the plane but the pilots that fly it .=
 Some
>   of the past statements that are listed in several of the write inns are
>   correct  and some are total bunk . I see a lack of training come from t=
he
>   faa instruction in training new students as well . When I left the
>   instruction faze of my life I saw the mandates starting to come down to=
 no
>   spin training required for students in training around the late 70's . =
If
>   you have a flight instructor that trained you on spins it probably was =
in
>   the 70's or it was an instructor like myself that believed in the whole
>   training package to flight . I also see a lot of very low time pilots f=
lying
>   these planes . Also pilots that took anywhere from 3 to 8 or more years=
 to
>   build and then fly there plane without touching a stick . This is an is=
sue
>   that needs to be trained in high performance single engine planes befor=
e
>   getting into the lancair planes or best train in another lancair . Not =
to go
>   out and rent a 172 and get some re-fresher  I F R  training . I can't
>   understand the no brainer of not having an aoa or a stall device in the
>   plane . As pilots we were teethed on this device from the start of our
>   training and now we get into a clean minimal drag plane without this st=
all
>   devices . I don't understand the thinking of some of you pilots . I wou=
ldn't
>   fly a plane without a stall devise in it .Most of you came from 60 k fi=
nal
>   approach planes that don't have the correct approach  speeds that the
>   lancair has .
>  =20
>    I have stalled every plane I flew . from the C 150 to the B 757 . When=
 you
>   try the stalls in your plane you must have a forward cg in your plane a=
nd
>   prefer it to be on the forward edge of the envelope . I stalled the lan=
cair
>   for the first time around  1990 with Don Getz  over Redmond ,Or after
>   climbing to 10 k . I stalled it straight ahead in a clean stall with no
>   power several times in a row  and several in a turn as well . In all th=
e
>   stalls the nose dropped off and I added power and recovered nicely , no
>   tight turns just a smooth recovery  . Rudder control was not inputted f=
or it
>   wasn't needed This was done in 409L after the new main gear box was put=
 in
>   it I believe before the flight .   Rigging the plane correctly is a mus=
t as
>   stated in previous statements as well . I really think engine out train=
ing
>   is a must for the lancair as well . Sink rates and picking out a spot f=
or a
>   successful landing is essential . . Faa doesn't have a clue and probabl=
y
>   care less and for them to make statements is not there business . I fee=
l we
>   as builders and pilots need to balance our flying and building skills t=
o
>   build a better plane and have a proficient pilot in the plane he or she=
 is
>   flying and not wait to have a government agency try to tell us somethin=
g we
>   all ready know  Bill
>  =20
>=20
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