X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 19:22:38 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from electron.sasknet.sk.ca ([142.165.20.179] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.16) with ESMTPS id 3882848 for lml@lancaironline.net; Sun, 11 Oct 2009 23:22:46 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=142.165.20.179; envelope-from=hjjohnson@sasktel.net Received: from pps.filterd (electron [127.0.0.1]) by electron.sasknet.sk.ca (8.14.3/8.14.3) with SMTP id n9C3Ii6O018823 for ; Sun, 11 Oct 2009 21:22:11 -0600 Received: from bgmpomr1.sasknet.sk.ca (bgmpOMR1.sasknet.sk.ca [142.165.72.22]) by electron.sasknet.sk.ca with ESMTP id hbn5yj8kv-1 for ; Sun, 11 Oct 2009 21:22:11 -0600 Received: from sasktel.net ([192.168.234.97]) by bgmpomr1.sasknet.sk.ca (SaskTel eMessaging Service) with ESMTP id <0KRD00CK4TCZO641@bgmpomr1.sasknet.sk.ca> for lml@lancaironline.net; Sun, 11 Oct 2009 21:22:11 -0600 (CST) Received: from [192.168.234.24] (Forwarded-For: [207.47.194.112]) by cgmail1.sasknet.sk.ca (mshttpd); Sun, 11 Oct 2009 21:22:11 -0600 X-Original-Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 21:22:11 -0600 From: H & J Johnson Subject: Re: [LML] Re: FAA RESCINDS INFO LETTER X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List X-Original-Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Sun Java(tm) System Messenger Express 6.1 HotFix 0.20 (built Feb 27 2006) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=1.12.8161:2.4.5,1.2.40,4.0.166 definitions=2009-10-10_01:2009-09-29,2009-10-10,2009-10-11 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 ipscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx engine=5.0.0-0908210000 definitions=main-0910110262

As mentioned, I very much doubt there will ever be a conclusive 'answer' to this discussion. My feeling is simply

that there are some [I have do doubt Lynn, your not in this 'category' :) ] that are scared to death of slow flight

and really don't know how their aircraft will behave while in approach to stall, possibly never even attempting to

test this. In my opinion, this is a dangerous mindset for operating a 'family' type airplane. I think AOA devices are a perfect

tool to reduce the possibility of a pilot to get into a 'pants filling' senario. I also believe that recurrency training

in these regions of the envelope are nesc. [I think the powers that be would agree or they wouldn't mandate

recurrency training in other areas] We all know that while these aircraft may come from their same [respective]

molds, they do have their own fingerprints when it comes to how they behave at the edge of the envelope. For

those who have not tested the lower end, to later take the wife and kids up is irresponsible [in my opinion]

as is not staying current in being able to handle/know the a/c in those speed ranges.

Re: racing and stalls, my question was simply illustrative that we may know how an a/c stalls straight and level

but in a accelerated or high speed stall, things can happen totally different. Knowing that it could possibly

snap roll or something would be valuable info to keep in the back of ones mind while yanking and banking

at a few hundred feet over the desert. Again having an AOA indicator may negate this to some degree, but

then I'd never know.. since I've never raced [I'll put a 'yet' in there too :)].

Lastly my mentioning the need to be able to recover from spin's to get ones ticket [up here] was simply to bring

to light that with increased level of training and understanding is helpful in extreme situations, as is the willingness to face

the fact that if we are not willing to face or address the nastier realitys that possibly we're driving too much

airplane. Years ago when my father was getting his ticket he was deathly afraid of spinning, simply because

of the 'horror stories' he'd heard/read. I finally took him up and we worked through it and slowly but

surely he became confident that he could demonstrate what was needed on his flight test. He knew he

wouldn't get his ticket unless he could do this and it was more a case of mind over matter [of course

we're also talking about a C-150 which has been well documented in spins].

As you mentioned Lynn, you flew a/c that were labeled 'do not spin', yet you did slow flight and

stalls. We do realize that there is a difference between stalling and spinning a plane, just becase

you stall does not mean your absolutely going to spin.

At the end of it all, I'm not advocating stalling or spinning w/ the wife and kids on board, simply a

heightened level of training to ensure the likelyhood that those who choose to fly it can do so safely,

and possibly even to improve the reputation of the various models such that they will remain around

for years to come.

Fwiw,

J. Johnson

>
> The only one of the four aircraft I listed that had an AOA was the
> F-4 (I
> think flying referencing the AOA is great. I used to fly the base
> turn and
> final approach listening to the AOA tone only). The others were
> flown, how
> should I say this?, by feel. Yes, I did slow flight and approaches
> to stalls
> in those aircraft. As you say they were well tested. The testing
> showed that
> it was counter productive to fly in the STALL region of the flight
> envelope.
> There has been testing of the Lancair aircraft to show that when
> they stall,
> it is counter productive to normal flying also. I think that they also
> "perform poorly in slow speed and at that edge of the envelope".
> I would
> hope that when you "take your wife/kids out for a ride" in your
> Lancair you
> aren't doing stalls and spins.
>
> I don't have any problem with people slow flying and exploring the
> stallcharacteristics of their aircraft. Explore the spin envelope
> too, because,
> someday you might need that too. Wear your parachute too..; but
> maybe the
> canopy won't let you get out? Just as a side note, my Legacy has
> an aft
> hinged canopy, so it is easily jettisoned.
>
> Who ever said I don't know about spins? Spinning was part and
> parcel of
> flying the T-37. If you didn't do the recovery correctly, bad things
> happened; increased spin rate or maybe inverted. I don't think I'd
> have a
> problem passing a Canadian flight check to get my "ticket".
>
> I don't think the Legacy is difficult to fly. Going from point A
> to point B
> is actually easy. Flying in the speed range of 80 knots to 350
> knots (I've
> not been beyond 350 KTS) is fairly routine. Flying at stall speed
> (AOA)between 2' AGL and what ever altitude is required for spin
> recovery can be a
> bit interesting and requires a little more attention to detail. I
> can slow
> fly as well as anyone.
>
> "I don't think anyone is 'name calling' per-say". Then perhaps
> ridicule???Saying, if someone prefers to avoid stalling he/she is
> not worthy of being
> part of the Lancair Brotherhood irritates me. I think a case could
> be made
> that someone who never stalls will have a longer life than one
> that brags
> about all the stalls he/she does in a Lancair. And, a better
> insurance risk?
> At the very least you can't jump to the conclusion that the non
> staller is a
> bad pilot!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Curious, are you telling us that you're flying low, fast and
> turning left...
> yet you don't know how or when that beauty is going to let go
> while pulling
> G's?
>
> How did you ever come to the above conclusion? In the history of
> the Reno
> Race, there has never been a single case of a pilot stalling and
> spinning in
> on the course. Secondly, I don't pull enough "G" to reach stall
> AOA. G =
> loss of speed.
>
> But yes, I do know exactly when my aircraft will stall; when the
> AOA reaches
> stall AOA. How do I avoid stall AOA on the course? Don't pull on
> the pole
> too hard! If I happened to go stupid and stall, all I have to do
> is reduce
> the AOA and I'll exit the stall and continue flying because I have
> LOTS of
> airspeed.
>
> But as I have said before, feel free to stall and spin to your hearts
> content. I don't mind. I just try and apply risk management.
>
>
>
> Lynn Farnsworth
>
> Super Legacy #235
>
> TSIO-550 Powered
>
> Race #44
>
> Purple Heart Times two