X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 19:11:27 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from mis005.exch005intermedia.net ([64.78.17.176] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.14) with ESMTP id 3740250 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 30 Jun 2009 13:41:54 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.78.17.176; envelope-from=johnwcox@pacificnw.com Received: from EXVBE005-2.exch005intermedia.net ([10.254.1.74]) by mis005.exch005intermedia.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Tue, 30 Jun 2009 10:41:19 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C9F9A9.F166778B" Subject: RE: [LML] Re: Diplomacy and Tact X-Original-Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 10:41:05 -0700 X-Original-Message-ID: <683D1C47989E0E42AB0422DC615861EFD6CA08@EXVBE005-2.exch005intermedia.net> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [LML] Re: Diplomacy and Tact Thread-Index: Acn5m9iXXN7VAlpPSUqW/Br+8d41VgADYqDA References: From: "John Cox" X-Original-To: "Lancair Mailing List" X-Original-Return-Path: johnwcox@pacificnw.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Jun 2009 17:41:19.0641 (UTC) FILETIME=[FA085890:01C9F9A9] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C9F9A9.F166778B Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You can fix stupid. It is just not easy or pretty. =20 =20 The Insurance Industry has demonstrated how they can select a specific group and make it financially painful to continue a pattern. Many and I would say most pilots I deal with do not understand the difference of minimal transition training to qualify for purchase of insurance and the Proficiency Training which is more effective at proper behavior modifications. The many Experimental owners need to tactfully suggest the industry focus their premium rates and savings on those who don't and those who - Do. =20 This is a great time to think again about the great work of LOBO and Jeff. =20 John Cox =20 From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Smith, Stuart Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 9:00 AM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Re: Diplomacy and Tact =20 I agree with Rob. I was in contact with an owner who decided he didn't need transition training, amoung other things, when his legacy was finished. I politely sat down and discussed various scenarios and outcomes with him three times, but he finished the last conversation by saying he was an old man, this is what he wanted to do, he was going to do it his way, and if he died in the process.... that's okay. How can you respond to that? =20 I learned that an acquaintance was flying with this owner during test flights. Again, I had several polite conversations with the passenger pointing out the dangers of his decisions, and I was assured that everything would be okay. After they both perished at the end of a dumb and dumber scenario, I learned that the passenger had three small children at home. I feel that if I had come unglued and started yelling at this gentleman, maybe he would still be a father to his children. I should not have been polite and I should have been more than gently persuasive. =20 You can't fix stupid. You need to care, you need to be curious and you need training to stay healthy in this hobby. Since we don't have the homebuilt airplane police, one only needs money to get into these fabulous airplanes. The large majority of homebuilders I know are concerned and safety oriented, but it only takes a few ding dongs who insist on rejecting reality to continually demonstrate Darwin's theory. You can pick them out of a crowd. I think the best we can do is to identify them and try to help limit collatoral damage. -----Original Message----- From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net]On Behalf Of Chuck Jensen Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 8:24 AM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Re: Diplomacy and Tact Did you inquire if he was using a Technical Advisor or other resource? Aand then go around, by way of the back door, to gain entry that way? =20 =20 I'm not saying you didn't do due diligence in this instance, but if we have a high degree of certainty that a person's life might be on the line; or even worse, an unsuspecting buyer may later purchase this accident-waiting-to-happen, then 3 attempts to warn someone of a foreseeable, very serious problem does not sound like overkill (pun intended). =20 =20 I've been stupid, and sometimes I've been stupid 3 times in a row, but I would hope that anyone that saw I was making such a serious mistake, would not simply walk away, satisified that they'd 'done their duty'. Chuck Jensen=20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net]On Behalf Of rwolf99@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 8:14 AM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Diplomacy and Tact As I grow older, I realize that I can say what needs to be said without insulting people. And yes, I can be more blunt with my friends. However, a couple of years ago I was being shown a Legendary Mustang kit at the local airport, which is surprisingly similar in construction technique to our Lancairs. Some construction aspects were done very well and some were not. The bad ones that I remember all involved the wing fuel tanks. The fuel tank sealer was poorly applied without good coverage -- there was exposed fiberglass in many places. But worse were the holes in the ribs that were not closed out with micro. THERE WOULD BE HONEYCOMB DIRECTLY EXPOSED TO FUEL. I told the builder that he needed to close out the holes so as not to allow fuel to contact the honeycomb and gradually soak thru the entire wing skin. His response was appalling -- he had taken the hole that he cut out and stuck it in a jar of avgas to see if it would break down over time. It looked okay after six months, so he was unconcerned. =09 I told him three times that he needed to close out the holes that were to be exposed to fuel. I was polite about it. I told him how I o make sure to get good coverage with the fuel tank sealer. Did he listen? No. However, I stopped short of calling him a f**king idiot with a death wish because it would not have made a bit of difference. If he ever finishes his plane, he WILL be an accident statistic. Guaranteed. =09 What would you have me do? Talk to the brick wall a little longer? Call the "homebuilt airplane police"? I said what needed to be said, three times, and was rebuffed every time. No, I walked away and told myself that Darwin still works, but in this case it will take a little longer. =20 =09 - Rob Wolf =20 =09 ________________________________ Save energy, paper and money -- get the Green Toolbar = .=20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C9F9A9.F166778B Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

You can fix stupid.  It is just not easy or = pretty. 

 

The Insurance Industry has demonstrated how they can = select a specific group and make it financially painful to continue a = pattern.  Many and I would say most pilots I deal with do not understand the = difference of minimal transition training to qualify for purchase of insurance and = the Proficiency Training which is more effective at proper behavior modifications.  The many Experimental owners need to tactfully = suggest the industry focus their premium rates and savings on those who don't and = those who - Do.

 

This is a great time to think again about the great work = of LOBO and Jeff.

 

John Cox

 

From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Smith, Stuart
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 9:00 AM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: Diplomacy and Tact

 

I agree with Rob.  I = was in contact with an owner who decided he didn't need transition training, = amoung other things, when his legacy was finished.  I politely sat down = and discussed various scenarios and outcomes with him three times, but he = finished the last conversation by saying he was an old man, this is what he = wanted to do, he was going to do it his way, and if he died in the process.... = that's okay.  How can you respond to that?

 

I learned that an = acquaintance was flying with this owner during test flights.  Again, I had several = polite conversations with the passenger pointing out the dangers of his = decisions, and I was assured that everything would be okay.  After they both = perished at the end of a dumb and dumber scenario, I learned that the passenger had = three small children at home.  I feel that if I had come unglued and = started yelling at this gentleman, maybe he would still be a father to his children.  I should not have been polite and I should have been = more than gently persuasive.

 

You can't fix stupid.  = You need to care, you need to be curious and you need training to stay = healthy in this hobby.  Since we don't have the homebuilt airplane police, = one only needs money to get into these fabulous airplanes.  The large = majority of homebuilders I know are concerned and safety oriented, but it only = takes a few ding dongs who insist on rejecting reality to continually demonstrate Darwin's theory.  You can pick them = out of a crowd.  I think the best we can do is to identify them and try = to help limit collatoral damage.

-----Origina= l Message-----
From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net]On = Behalf Of Chuck Jensen
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 8:24 AM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: Diplomacy and Tact

Did you inquire if he was = using a Technical Advisor or other resource?  Aand then go around, by way = of the back door, to gain entry that way? 

 

I'm not saying you didn't do due diligence in this instance, but if we have a high degree of certainty that a person's life might be on the line; or even worse, an unsuspecting buyer may later purchase this accident-waiting-to-happen, = then 3 attempts to warn someone of a foreseeable, very serious problem does not = sound like overkill (pun intended). 

 

I've been stupid, and = sometimes I've been stupid 3 times in a row, but I would hope that anyone that saw = I was making such a serious mistake, would not simply walk away, = satisified that they'd 'done their duty'.

Chuck Jensen =

 

-----Origina= l Message-----
From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net]On = Behalf Of rwolf99@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 8:14 AM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Diplomacy and Tact

As I grow older, I = realize that I can say what needs to be said without insulting people.  And yes, I = can be more blunt with my friends.  However, a couple of years ago I was = being shown a Legendary Mustang kit at the local airport, which is = surprisingly similar in construction technique to our Lancairs.  Some = construction aspects were done very well and some were not.  The bad ones that I remember all involved the wing fuel tanks.  The fuel tank sealer = was poorly applied without good coverage -- there was exposed fiberglass in = many places.  But worse were the holes in the ribs that were not closed = out with micro.  THERE WOULD BE HONEYCOMB DIRECTLY EXPOSED TO = FUEL.  I told the builder that he needed to close out the holes so as not to = allow fuel to contact the honeycomb and gradually soak thru the entire wing = skin.  His response was appalling -- he had taken the hole that he cut out and = stuck it in a jar of avgas to see if it would break down over time.  It = looked okay after six months, so he was unconcerned.

I told him three times that he needed to close out the holes that were = to be exposed to fuel.  I was polite about it.  I told him how = I o make sure to get good coverage with the fuel tank sealer.  Did he listen?  No.  However, I stopped short of calling him a = f**king idiot with a death wish because it would not have made a bit of difference. =  If he ever finishes his plane, he WILL be an accident statistic.  = Guaranteed.

What would you have me do?  Talk to the brick wall a little = longer?  Call the "homebuilt airplane police"?  I said what needed = to be said, three times, and was rebuffed every time.  No, I walked away = and told myself that Darwin still works, but in this case it will take a = little longer. 

- Rob Wolf

 

Save energy, paper and = money -- get the Green Toolbar. =

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