X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 18:46:39 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from [64.12.143.99] (HELO imo-m11.mail.aol.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.8) with ESMTP id 3203946 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 07 Oct 2008 20:59:20 -0400 Received: from Sky2high@aol.com by imo-m11.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v39.1.) id q.bea.2a94c1aa (39329) for ; Tue, 7 Oct 2008 20:59:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Sky2high@aol.com X-Original-Message-ID: X-Original-Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 20:59:16 EDT Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Stalls [LML] X-Original-To: lml@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1223427556" X-Mailer: Unknown sub 34 X-Spam-Flag:NO -------------------------------1223427556 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en Luke, =20 RE: Birds don't always dive. =20 See: _http://www.aopa.org/members/files/pilot/2005/bird0508.html_=20 (http://www.aopa.org/members/files/pilot/2005/bird0508.html)=20 =20 Grayhawk =20 =20 In a message dated 10/6/2008 9:30:02 P.M. Central Daylight Time, =20 lalcorn@natca.net writes: =20 I will not disagree with your statements. I am only posing questions to=20 make people think. I can refute and support every claim that you stated. =20= The=20 problem is I read emails where people are talking in absolutes. There are=20= no=20 absolutes in aviation. =20 I dodge turkey vultures quite frequently in Florida, in a helicopter at low= =20 altitude, and every single time for the past 10 years, they dive away. Whe= n=20 you say low altitude, what is low, 100, 50, 1000ft? Not saying they can no= t=20 climb, maybe they did not read the documented observation you speak of. I= =E2=80=99ve=20 not personally seen a bird climb out of the way of rapidly approaching=20 aircraft. I=E2=80=99ve witnessed them fold their wings and dive like a mis= sile. I don=E2=80=99t=20 have to ask Bill, I avoid them every time I fly. Now in a helicopter, I ca= n=20 roll much faster than climb, so we bank out of the way, but some pilots do=20 not like to bank over 30 degrees, so they instinctively climb. Lancair=E2= =80=99s can=20 climb remarkably faster than any bird. If you want to descend, keep on doi= ng=20 what you do.=20 Tell the pilot of a bonanza I saw, was coming over the threshold, controlle= r=20 told him to go around because the controller saw that his gear was not down= =20 at the last minute. When the pilot applied power, the nose pitched up, tai= l=20 hit the runway and the aircraft cart wheeled and blew up. Unfortunately, y= ou=20 can=E2=80=99t ask him, because he=E2=80=99s dead, and I watched it happen f= rom 100 yards=20 away as I was waiting to take the runway.=20 Wind shear, I agree completely yet you state is so simply and it is not. =20 Does everyone keep their speed up and have a good grasp of the weather patt= ern=20 and winds around them? Hence why we have accidents and that is all I am=20 trying to say. =20 Speaking in absolutes as though every pilot knows how to react to every=20 situation is simply not true. We all learn through mistakes, if we make it= . I=20 want to express that saying, =E2=80=9CI will not fly the airplane below a 1= 10 knots=E2=80=9D,=20 except in the flair, is not a good training method or going to save yoursel= f=20 from a stall. Knowing how the aircraft feels approaching a stall and how t= o=20 recover before entering the stall in these situations is paramount to not=20 entering the stall. =20 =20 Luke Alcorn =20 Luke, =20 =20 Nice try. =20 =20 As pilot in command, you have control over real flight. In PP 2, you are=20 not quite correct. At low altitudes, birds climb (this is a documented =20 observation) -- BTW, Ask Bill. =20 =20 PP3, You should know your plane's slow speed handling characteristics and=20 you can tell the controller that you "cannot comply" and request a go-aroun= d. =20 No one here has ever suggested that you shouldn't know and practice slow=20 speed flight, you need not stall. After all, the 320/360 emergency gear=20 extension procedure requires that you slow to 87 KIAS. =20 =20 PP4 - How about wind shear - keep your speed up and remember that it is not= =20 against the rules to push the stick forward even when near to the ground. =20 =20 It is clear to me that one must learn not to try and fix every problem by=20 pulling back on the blessed stick. =20 =20 Grayhawk =20 =20 =20 In a message dated 10/5/2008 3:41:56 P.M. Central Daylight Time,=20 lalcorn@natca.net writes: I would like to add to this discussion on stalls and slow flight handling o= f=20 aircraft. One thing I see discussed by pilots is that, they do not need to= =20 practice stalls or slow flight because they know the speeds and simply stay= =20 faster than those speeds close to the "slow realm" of flight, which I would= =20 infer is also the region of reverse command and just above. This is a grea= t =20 safety idea in ideal conditions, your familiar airport, standard traffic =20 patterns, no controllers, etc. Unfortunately real flight is nothing like t= his. =20 One good example is bird avoidance. The proper method of avoiding birds is= =20 to climb and turn, since birds will typically dive away. So you are on a=20 downwind, gear extended, flaps slightly out, and there is a 10lb turkey vul= ture=20 and you pull and turn. Sounds close to an accelerated stall, doesn't it. =20= If=20 you do not know what your plane feels like at slower speeds, how will you=20 know how hard to pull or when to recover. Add this during a base to final,= =20 and you have a stall spin accident. How many of these accelerated stall ba= se=20 to final crashes have happened in the last year alone? =20 Next example is when you add those pesky controllers trying to fit your 120= =20 knot aircraft behind a 150 in the downwind at an airport with a 3500 foot=20 runway. They ask you to slow, you do the best you can, but still eating th= is=20 guys lunch. Your busy configuring etc, then the tower controller sees its=20= not=20 going to work and orders a go around when you are crossing the threshold wi= th=20 full flaps and gear hanging out, starting to round out. Do not think they=20 won't do that either. Especially with the new generation of controllers be= ing=20 hired off the street, many are not familiar with aircraft characteristics=20 and are only concerned about having an error. How many of the "don't pract= ice=20 slow flight/stalls" practice full landing configured go-arounds at high rat= es=20 of descent. Again, knowing your aircraft's slow handling characteristics=20 might help here. How about wind shear? I've been in clear VFR days in florida and catch th= e=20 outflow from a storm 20 miles away while in the downwind and loose 25 knots= =20 in an instant with a nice downdraft. What is your natural instinct when yo= u=20 encounter a large sink close to the ground? Pull back now that you are onl= y=20 6 knots above stall? I could go on and on with examples, but just things to think about. Previously stated "The initial training for a Lancair needs to include=20 exposure to the stall to assess the speed at which it is likely to occur. T= hat=20 assessed, continued testing of that seems superfluous given the mind set sh= ould=20 be clearly engraved to avoid the area whereby such a condition of flight =20 occurs".=20 How can you simply avoid these regions of flight given the examples I have=20 just stated? Luke Alcorn -- For archives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.htm= l =20 ____________________________________ =20 New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your destination. Dining,=20 Movies, Events, News & more. _Try it out_=20 (http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=3Demlcntnew00000001) ! **************New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your destination.= =20 Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out! =20 (http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=3Demlcntnew00000001) -------------------------------1223427556 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en
Luke,
 
RE: Birds don't always dive.
 
See: http://w= ww.aopa.org/members/files/pilot/2005/bird0508.html
 
Grayhawk
 
In a message dated 10/6/2008 9:30:02 P.M. Central Daylight Time,=20 lalcorn@natca.net writes:
<= FONT=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size= =3D2>

I will not disagree with your statements. =20= I am=20 only posing questions to make people think.  I can refute and support= =20 every claim that you stated.  The problem is I read emails where peop= le=20 are talking in absolutes.  There are no absolutes in aviation. =20

 

I dodge turkey vultures quite frequently in Florida, in a=20 helicopter at low altitude, and every single time for the past 10 years, t= hey=20 dive away.  When you say low altitude, what is low, 100, 50,=20 1000ft?  Not saying they can not climb, maybe they did not read the=20 documented observation you speak of.  I=E2=80=99ve not personally see= n a bird=20 climb out of the way of rapidly approaching aircraft.  I=E2=80=99ve w= itnessed=20 them fold their wings and dive like a missile.  I don=E2=80=99t have=20= to ask Bill,=20 I avoid them every time I fly.  Now in a helicopter, I can roll much=20 faster than climb, so we bank out of the way, but some pilots do not like=20= to=20 bank over 30 degrees, so they instinctively climb.  Lancair=E2=80=99s= can climb=20 remarkably faster than any bird.  If you want to descend, keep on doi= ng=20 what you do.

 

Tell the pilot of a bonanza I saw, was coming ov= er the=20 threshold, controller told him to go around because the controller saw tha= t=20 his gear was not down at the last minute.  When the pilot applied pow= er,=20 the nose pitched up, tail hit the runway and the aircraft cart wheeled and= =20 blew up.  Unfortunately, you can=E2=80=99t ask him, because he=E2=80= =99s dead, and I=20 watched it happen from 100 yards away as I was waiting to take the=20 runway.

 

Wind shear, I agree completely yet you state is=20= so=20 simply and it is not.  Does everyone keep their speed up and have a g= ood=20 grasp of the weather pattern and winds around them?  Hence why we hav= e=20 accidents and that is all I am trying to say. =20

 

Speaking in absolutes as though every pilot know= s how=20 to react to every situation is simply not true.  We all learn through= =20 mistakes, if we make it.  I want to express that saying, =E2=80=9CI w= ill not fly=20 the airplane below a 110 knots=E2=80=9D, except in the flair, is not a goo= d training=20 method or going to save yourself from a stall.  Knowing how the aircr= aft=20 feels approaching a stall and how to recover before entering the stall in=20 these situations is paramount to not entering the stall. =20

 

Luke=20 Alcorn

 

Luke,

 

Nice=20 try.

 

As pilot=20 in command, you have control over real flight.  In PP 2, you are= not=20 quite correct.  At low altitudes, birds climb (this is a documented=20 observation) -- BTW, Ask Bill.

 

PP3, You shoul= d know=20 your plane's slow speed handling characteristics and you can tell the=20 controller that you "cannot comply" and request a go-around.  No one=20= here=20 has ever suggested that you shouldn't know and practice slow speed flight,= you=20 need not stall.  After all, the 320/360 emergency gear extension=20 procedure requires that you slow to 87=20 KIAS.

 

PP4 - How abou= t wind=20 shear - keep your speed up and remember that it is not against the rules t= o=20 push the stick forward even when near to the=20 ground.

 

It is clear to= me=20 that one must learn not to try and fix every problem by pulling back on th= e=20 blessed stick.

 

Grayhawk<= /o:p>

 

In a message d= ated=20 10/5/2008 3:41:56 P.M. Central Daylight Time, lalcorn@natca.net=20 writes:

I would like= to=20 add to this discussion on stalls and slow flight handling of aircraft.&n= bsp;=20 One thing I see discussed by pilots is that, they do not need to practic= e=20 stalls or slow flight because they know the speeds and simply stay faste= r=20 than those speeds close to the "slow realm" of flight, which I would inf= er=20 is also the region of reverse command and just above.  This is a gr= eat=20 safety idea in ideal conditions, your familiar airport, standard traffic= =20 patterns, no controllers, etc.  Unfortunately real flight is nothin= g=20 like this. 

One good example is bird avoidance.  The=20 proper method of avoiding birds is to climb and turn, since birds will=20 typically dive away.  So you are on a downwind, gear extended, flap= s=20 slightly out, and there is a 10lb turkey vulture and you pull and=20 turn.  Sounds close to an accelerated stall, doesn't it.  If y= ou=20 do not know what your plane feels like at slower speeds, how will you kn= ow=20 how hard to pull or when to recover.  Add this during a base to fin= al,=20 and you have a stall spin accident.  How many of these accelerated=20 stall base to final crashes have happened in the last year alone? =20

Next example is when you add those pesky controllers trying to f= it=20 your 120 knot aircraft behind a 150 in the downwind at an airport with a= =20 3500 foot runway.  They ask you to slow, you do the best you can, b= ut=20 still eating this guys lunch.  Your busy configuring etc, then the=20 tower controller sees its not going to work and orders a go around when=20= you=20 are crossing the threshold with full flaps and gear hanging out, startin= g to=20 round out.  Do not think they won't do that either.  Especiall= y=20 with the new generation of controllers being hired off the street, many=20= are=20 not familiar with aircraft characteristics and are only concerned about=20 having an error.  How many of the "don't practice slow flight/stall= s"=20 practice full landing configured go-arounds at high rates of descent.&nb= sp;=20 Again, knowing your aircraft's slow handling characteristics might help=20 here.

How about wind shear?  I've been in clear VFR days in=20 florida=20 and catch the outflow from a storm 20 miles away while in the downwind a= nd=20 loose 25 knots in an instant with a nice downdraft.  What is your=20 natural instinct when you encounter a large sink close to the ground?&nb= sp;=20 Pull back now that you are only 6 knots above stall?

I could go o= n=20 and on with examples, but just things to think about.

Previously=20 stated "The initial training for a Lancair needs to include exposure to=20= the=20 stall to assess the speed at which it is likely to occur. That assessed,= =20 continued testing of that seems superfluous given the mind set should be= =20 clearly engraved to avoid the area whereby such a condition of flight=20 occurs".

How can you simply avoid these regions of flight given=20= the=20 examples I have just stated?

Luke Alcorn




--For=20 archives and unsub=20 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html



<= /o:p>

New=20 MapQuest Local shows what'= s=20 happening at your destination. Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it=20 out!



New MapQuest Local shows what's ha= ppening at your destination. Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out!<= /FONT>
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