X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 17:06:25 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from imo-m14.mx.aol.com ([64.12.138.204] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.8) with ESMTP id 3200602 for lml@lancaironline.net; Sun, 05 Oct 2008 17:04:40 -0400 Received: from Sky2high@aol.com by imo-m14.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v39.1.) id q.d50.351be31d (30739) for ; Sun, 5 Oct 2008 17:03:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Sky2high@aol.com X-Original-Message-ID: X-Original-Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 17:03:10 EDT Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Stalls [LML] X-Original-To: lml@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1223240590" X-Mailer: Unknown sub 34 X-Spam-Flag: NO -------------------------------1223240590 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Luke, Nice try. As pilot in command, you have control over real flight. In PP 2, you are not quite correct. At low altitudes, birds climb (this is a documented observation) -- BTW, Ask Bill. PP3, You should know your plane's slow speed handling characteristics and you can tell the controller that you "cannot comply" and request a go-around. No one here has ever suggested that you shouldn't know and practice slow speed flight, you need not stall. After all, the 320/360 emergency gear extension procedure requires that you slow to 87 KIAS. PP4 - How about wind shear - keep your speed up and remember that it is not against the rules to push the stick forward even when near to the ground. It is clear to me that one must learn not to try and fix every problem by pulling back on the blessed stick. Grayhawk In a message dated 10/5/2008 3:41:56 P.M. Central Daylight Time, lalcorn@natca.net writes: I would like to add to this discussion on stalls and slow flight handling of aircraft. One thing I see discussed by pilots is that, they do not need to practice stalls or slow flight because they know the speeds and simply stay faster than those speeds close to the "slow realm" of flight, which I would infer is also the region of reverse command and just above. This is a great safety idea in ideal conditions, your familiar airport, standard traffic patterns, no controllers, etc. Unfortunately real flight is nothing like this. One good example is bird avoidance. The proper method of avoiding birds is to climb and turn, since birds will typically dive away. So you are on a downwind, gear extended, flaps slightly out, and there is a 10lb turkey vulture and you pull and turn. Sounds close to an accelerated stall, doesn't it. If you do not know what your plane feels like at slower speeds, how will you know how hard to pull or when to recover. Add this during a base to final, and you have a stall spin accident. How many of these accelerated stall base to final crashes have happened in the last year alone? Next example is when you add those pesky controllers trying to fit your 120 knot aircraft behind a 150 in the downwind at an airport with a 3500 foot runway. They ask you to slow, you do the best you can, but still eating this guys lunch. Your busy configuring etc, then the tower controller sees its not going to work and orders a go around when you are crossing the threshold with full flaps and gear hanging out, starting to round out. Do not think they won't do that either. Especially with the new generation of controllers being hired off the street, many are not familiar with aircraft characteristics and are only concerned about having an error. How many of the "don't practice slow flight/stalls" practice full landing configured go-arounds at high rates of descent. Again, knowing your aircraft's slow handling characteristics might help here. How about wind shear? I've been in clear VFR days in florida and catch the outflow from a storm 20 miles away while in the downwind and loose 25 knots in an instant with a nice downdraft. What is your natural instinct when you encounter a large sink close to the ground? Pull back now that you are only 6 knots above stall? I could go on and on with examples, but just things to think about. Previously stated "The initial training for a Lancair needs to include exposure to the stall to assess the speed at which it is likely to occur. That assessed, continued testing of that seems superfluous given the mind set should be clearly engraved to avoid the area whereby such a condition of flight occurs". How can you simply avoid these regions of flight given the examples I have just stated? Luke Alcorn -- For archives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html **************New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your destination. Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out! (http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000001) -------------------------------1223240590 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Luke,
 
Nice try.
 
As pilot in command, you have control over real flight.  In P= P 2,=20 you are not quite correct.  At low altitudes, birds climb (this is a=20 documented observation) -- BTW, Ask Bill.
 
PP3, You should know your plane's slow speed handling characteristics a= nd=20 you can tell the controller that you "cannot comply" and request a=20 go-around.  No one here has ever suggested that you shouldn't know and=20 practice slow speed flight, you need not stall.  After all, the 320/360= =20 emergency gear extension procedure requires that you slow to 87 KIAS.
 
PP4 - How about wind shear - keep your speed up and remember that it is= not=20 against the rules to push the stick forward even when near to the ground.
 
It is clear to me that one must learn not to try and fix every problem=20= by=20 pulling back on the blessed stick.
 
Grayhawk
 
In a message dated 10/5/2008 3:41:56 P.M. Central Daylight Time,=20 lalcorn@natca.net writes:
<= FONT=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size= =3D2>I would=20 like to add to this discussion on stalls and slow flight handling of=20 aircraft.  One thing I see discussed by pilots is that, they do not n= eed=20 to practice stalls or slow flight because they know the speeds and simply=20= stay=20 faster than those speeds close to the "slow realm" of flight, which I woul= d=20 infer is also the region of reverse command and just above.  This is=20= a=20 great safety idea in ideal conditions, your familiar airport, standard tra= ffic=20 patterns, no controllers, etc.  Unfortunately real flight is nothing=20= like=20 this. 

One good example is bird avoidance.  The proper=20 method of avoiding birds is to climb and turn, since birds will typically=20= dive=20 away.  So you are on a downwind, gear extended, flaps slightly out, a= nd=20 there is a 10lb turkey vulture and you pull and turn.  Sounds close t= o an=20 accelerated stall, doesn't it.  If you do not know what your plane fe= els=20 like at slower speeds, how will you know how hard to pull or when to=20 recover.  Add this during a base to final, and you have a stall spin=20 accident.  How many of these accelerated stall base to final crashes=20= have=20 happened in the last year alone? 

Next example is when you ad= d=20 those pesky controllers trying to fit your 120 knot aircraft behind a 150=20= in=20 the downwind at an airport with a 3500 foot runway.  They ask you to=20 slow, you do the best you can, but still eating this guys lunch.  You= r=20 busy configuring etc, then the tower controller sees its not going to work= and=20 orders a go around when you are crossing the threshold with full flaps and= =20 gear hanging out, starting to round out.  Do not think they won't do=20= that=20 either.  Especially with the new generation of controllers being hire= d=20 off the street, many are not familiar with aircraft characteristics and ar= e=20 only concerned about having an error.  How many of the "don't practic= e=20 slow flight/stalls" practice full landing configured go-arounds at high ra= tes=20 of descent.  Again, knowing your aircraft's slow handling characteris= tics=20 might help here.

How about wind shear?  I've been in clear VFR= =20 days in florida and catch the outflow from a storm 20 miles away while in=20= the=20 downwind and loose 25 knots in an instant with a nice downdraft.  Wha= t is=20 your natural instinct when you encounter a large sink close to the=20 ground?  Pull back now that you are only 6 knots above stall?

= I=20 could go on and on with examples, but just things to think=20 about.

Previously stated "The initial training for a Lancair needs=20= to=20 include exposure to the stall to assess the speed at which it is likely to= =20 occur. That assessed, continued testing of that seems superfluous given th= e=20 mind set should be clearly engraved to avoid the area whereby such a condi= tion=20 of flight occurs".

How can you simply avoid these regions of fligh= t=20 given the examples I have just stated?

Luke=20 Alcorn




--
For archives and unsub=20 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html


New MapQuest Local s= hows what's happening at your destination. Dining, Movies, Events, News & m= ore. T= ry it out!
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