X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 21:29:55 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from mta11.charter.net ([216.33.127.80] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.7) with ESMTP id 3122817 for lml@lancaironline.net; Wed, 10 Sep 2008 12:24:37 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=216.33.127.80; envelope-from=GAMarr@Charter.Net Received: from aarprv04.charter.net ([10.20.200.74]) by mta11.charter.net (InterMail vM.7.08.03.00 201-2186-126-20070710) with ESMTP id <20080910162352.OEYS21239.mta11.charter.net@aarprv04.charter.net> for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2008 12:23:52 -0400 Received: from DB77R351 ([24.178.5.47]) by aarprv04.charter.net with ESMTP id <20080910162351.VEEW10008.aarprv04.charter.net@DB77R351> for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2008 12:23:51 -0400 From: "Giffen Marr" X-Original-To: References: Subject: RE: Birdstrikes and other structural damage. X-Original-Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 11:23:48 -0500 X-Original-Message-ID: <51530BD85F164C6A9333D051785DAF9F@DB77R351> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0176_01C91337.B1FF08E0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 thread-index: AckTLw51l4PjhzULRNCexWfv5QtfOwALRdGw X-Chzlrs: 0 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0176_01C91337.B1FF08E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark is right. From personal experience, I was checking out a newly assigned pilot in the De Havilland Otter. We were empty and I asked for a full flap landing. Well, we did not get the tail down (difficult to do in an empty Otter) and touched down slightly heavy on the mains. Well you can guess what happened next, we were back in the air about 5 feet and we added a slight amount of power to cushion the landing. That was all it took to stall the entire left wing. We touched down on the left main and the wingtip. Did a hard left turn and finally got the wing back up and pulled the power. The left wing went down again and we did another left turn, got the wing back up and took off 180 degrees from our approach heading. Once airborne, se started to retract the flaps and every time we brought them up, I had to apply additional yoke to keep the aircraft level. Decided that was not a good idea, so left the flaps alone and made a very wide turn back to the airport. We were advised we had structural damage to the left wing, so elected to do a very flat landing on the mains and did not significantly reduce airspeed until we were solidly on the ground. When we went back and looked at the marks on the runway, the tail wheel left a mark that was outside the left main mount mark, indicating that we had applied full rudder to try and pick up the wing, but were unsuccessful. We had ripped off the outboard hinge on the left wing and the outer half of the aileron was standing vertical above the wing. We were lucky! Giff Marr _____ From: Mark Ravinski [mailto:mjrav@comcast.net] Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 6:41 PM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: Birdstrikes and other structural damage. Guys and Girls, Let me share a little Air Force doctrine for you to ponder. First, Whenever you experience structural damage in flight, whether from a bird, midair, someone shooting at you or anything else, the safest speed is the one you are at - assuming that you are still controllable. Probably somewhat slower if you are not. This is because the stall speed is expected to increase with any damage. Second, Climb at a safe airspeed to a safe altitude for a controllability check and possibly bailout. I realize that we seldom fly with a chute and this part is of limited use. The controllability check is a gradual slowing down to see if the plane is still controllable at a speed at which it can be landed safely. Use flaps only if they appear undamaged. Tricycle gear airplanes have a maximum landing speed where the nosewheel touches down first initiating a porpoise and probable gear collapse. My 360 would probably be porposing badly at speeds about 50 kts above normal landing speed. This is a hard number to get exact data on. You can gradually increase landing speeds until you touch down exactly 3 point and then figure somewhat more as a practical limit. I would do the controllability check as a means to determine how messy the landing could be. Then go somewhere with plenty of emergency equipment if needed and maybe even land gear up. Lastly, After the controllability check, maneuver to your landing while holding a speed at or above the minimum you flew on the check. There are other checklist items also as appropriate from your manual. Mark Ravinski 360 1445 hrs ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott Resnick To: lml@lancaironline.net Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 3:30 PM Subject: [LML] Re: My three Birdstrikes I have hit three birds so far in Lancairs. One on Takeoff at Night. 120knts Broke the spinner. One at 8,000 feet over the Columbia River in Oregon. 170 knts Cracked the Cowl One on Extended Base 140 knts Cracked the Cowl . Birds love me. Scott --- On Sun, 9/7/08, MikeEasley@aol.com wrote: From: MikeEasley@aol.com Subject: [LML] Re: high speed passes and go arounds To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Sunday, September 7, 2008, 3:09 PM One argument I've heard concerning high speed passes is the potential of a bird strike. At high speed the impact of a bird is much more dangerous than if it happens at approach speeds. I'm not sure how valid the argument is, but it makes sense to me. Mike Easley Colorado Springs _____ Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com. ------=_NextPart_000_0176_01C91337.B1FF08E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Mark is = right.

From personal experience, I was = checking out a newly assigned pilot in the De Havilland Otter. We were empty and = I asked for a full flap landing. Well, we did not get the tail down (difficult = to do in an empty Otter) and touched down slightly heavy on the mains. Well you = can guess what happened next, we were back in the air about 5 feet and we = added a slight amount of power to cushion the landing. That was all it took to = stall the entire left wing. We touched down on the left main and the wingtip. = Did a hard left turn and finally got the wing back up and pulled the power. = The left wing went down again and we did another left turn, got the wing back up = and took off 180 degrees from our approach heading. Once airborne, se = started to retract the flaps and every time we brought them up, I had to apply = additional yoke to keep the aircraft level. Decided that was not a good idea, so left = the flaps alone and made a very wide turn back to the airport. We were advised we = had structural damage to the left wing, so elected to do a very flat landing = on the mains and did not significantly reduce airspeed until we were solidly on = the ground. When we went back and looked at the marks on the runway, the = tail wheel left a mark that was outside the left main mount mark, indicating that = we had applied full rudder to try and pick up the wing, but were unsuccessful. = We had ripped off the outboard hinge on the left wing and the outer half of the = aileron was standing vertical above the wing. We were = lucky!

Giff Marr =    

 

From: Mark = Ravinski [mailto:mjrav@comcast.net]
Sent: Tuesday, September = 09, 2008 6:41 PM
To: = lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: Birdstrikes and = other structural damage.

 

Guys and Girls,

Let me share a little Air Force doctrine for you to = ponder.

 

First,   Whenever you experience structural = damage in flight, whether from a bird, midair, someone shooting at you or anything else, the safest speed is the one you are at - assuming that = you are still controllable.  Probably somewhat slower if you are = not.  This is because the stall speed is expected to increase with any = damage.

 

Second,   Climb at a safe airspeed to a = safe altitude for a controllability check and possibly bailout.  =

I realize that we seldom fly with a chute and this = part is of limited use.

The controllability check is  a gradual slowing = down to see if the plane is still controllable at a speed at which it can be = landed safely.  Use flaps only if they appear = undamaged.

 

Tricycle gear airplanes have a maximum landing speed = where the nosewheel touches down first initiating a porpoise and probable gear collapse.  My 360 would probably be porposing badly at speeds about = 50 kts above normal landing speed.  This is a hard number to get exact = data on.  You can gradually increase landing speeds until you touch down exactly 3 point and then figure somewhat more as a practical = limit.

 

I would do the controllability check as a means to = determine how messy the landing could be.  Then go somewhere with plenty of emergency equipment if needed and maybe even land gear = up.

 

Lastly,  After the controllability check, = maneuver to your landing while holding a speed at or above the minimum you flew on = the check. 

There are other checklist items also as appropriate = from your manual.

 

Mark Ravinski

360    1445 = hrs

 

----- Original Message ----- =

Sent: Monday, = September 08, 2008 3:30 PM

Subject: [LML] = Re: My three Birdstrikes

 

I have hit three birds so far in = Lancairs.

One on Takeoff at Night.  120knts
Broke the spinner.

One at 8,000 feet over the Columbia River in Oregon. 170 knts
Cracked the Cowl

One on Extended Base  140 knts 
Cracked the Cowl

.

Birds love me.


Scott




--- On Sun, 9/7/08, MikeEasley@aol.com <MikeEasley@aol.com><= /span> wrote:

From: MikeEasley@aol.com <MikeEasley@aol.com>
Subject: [LML] Re: high speed passes and go arounds
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Date: Sunday, September 7, 2008, 3:09 PM

One argument = I've heard concerning high speed passes is the potential of a bird = strike.  At high speed the impact of a bird is much more dangerous than if it = happens at approach speeds.  I'm not sure how valid the argument is, but = it makes sense to me.

 

Mike = Easley

Colorado = Springs

 

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