X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 15:31:12 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from QMTA10.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.17] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.7) with ESMTP id 3119626 for lml@lancaironline.net; Mon, 08 Sep 2008 12:46:15 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=76.96.62.17; envelope-from=j.hafen@comcast.net Received: from OMTA08.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.12]) by QMTA10.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id CEXg1a01L0Fqzac5AGlejn; Mon, 08 Sep 2008 16:45:38 +0000 Received: from [10.128.88.223] ([206.191.160.125]) by OMTA08.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id CGlR1a00Q2idoaN3UGlV6X; Mon, 08 Sep 2008 16:45:35 +0000 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=RnOZ9p3EAAAA:8 a=tbdw1auNAAAA:8 a=3i2aCCGTAAAA:8 a=tCoxvbWIAAAA:8 a=x-xCudFV1u1l3uu6aywA:9 a=D3fDj0VX9jMvOeFv9B0A:7 a=QUnu3FaM8ez39jVuEl35fy0_r4oA:4 a=dLJimWRr_REA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=U8Ie8EnqySEA:10 a=hpF-ijbX5cwA:10 a=1AYuCq7KsAoVv_x4ea0A:9 a=M6HaJk5-LXqrUGZWdX8A:7 a=b5Y04vnI7kHmxXNPxCUbWHPOeVYA:4 a=Sz-0p1zU2dQA:10 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.12.0.080729 X-Original-Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 09:45:25 -0700 Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Lancair Accidents From: John Hafen X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List X-Original-Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [LML] Re: Lancair Accidents Thread-Index: AckR0kqmYrKNIjjZWkaiUPFCfkmqSA== In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3303711934_127100" > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3303711934_127100 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Why would you want to practice stalling a plane such as a IVP or IVPT that is quick to enter a spin and may or may not be recoverable? On 9/7/08 3:08 PM, "Taylor, David" wrote: > Jeff, > =20 > We agree about 80%, =A0but I think you=B9re missing my point about pilot beha= vior > and training and mindset.=A0 (I also need to be more careful about providin= g you > with easy plays on =B3dead serious=B2 words.)=A0 Lancair pilots need more train= ing =AD > that=B9s my point too!!!!=A0 But I am saying that we need some concrete > recommendations for making this happen.=A0 We disagree about how to get the > attention of the Lancair population out there.=A0 I contend that treating t= hem > like 8 year olds =A0is counter-productive.=A0 (they will tune you out.) > =20 > But the bottom of your post is exactly what we need to talk about.=A0 There > needs to be a list of additional things pilots are trained on.=A0 There als= o > needs to be a revision of the mindset about training in general on Lancai= rs.=A0 > IE =AD we need to fly these planes in constant training mode, and we need t= o set > aside specific flights as training flights where we do nothing else but g= o > over some piece of the curriculum until we have a level of competency in = it. > =20 > I am appealing to you because of your position as a Lancair trainer.=A0 The= re > are things missing from the curriculum.=A0 For example as ive said many tim= es, I > absolutely think we need more stall awareness training as you talked abou= t > below.=A0=20 > =20 > The bottom line:=A0 Lancair pilots have a significant responsibility if the= y > want to fly safely.=A0 Heres a for example:=A0 if you fly a Lancair and do no= t > fully understand ATC=B9s roll in Thunderstorm avoidance, you need to take a= n > hour or so and go thru the FAA course on-line which is very good and expl= ains > exactly what ATC does and does not do.=A0 IF YOU DO NOT DO THIS AND/OR DO N= OT > HAVE THIS KNOWLEDGE YOU ARE BEING IRRESPONSIBLE.=A0 (see how simple that is= .) > =20 > Dave T > Legacy > =20 > =20 >=20 > From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of > vtailjeff@aol.com > Sent: Fri, September 05, 2008 0:47 > To: lml@lancaironline.net > Subject: [LML] Re: Lancair Accidents > =20 > David, >=20 > Please please Jeff, think of some useful concrete recommendations for our > behavior as pilots and let us know what they are=8A=8A=8A.. (I have already po= sted > 3 of them.) > I am trying to modify your behavior but I am not having much luck. You th= ink > every Lancair pilot is "dead serious" about the "entire process". I disa= gree. > Some are, some are not. I currently have an accident case in which the La= ncair > pilot never got a flight review in over 20 years. Dead serious?-- no just > dead. Another gent took off from Oshkosh with a known malfunctioning engi= ne > that he was urged to have fixed before he departed. He did not. His aircr= aft > was also out of annual (condition inspection). Dead serious? ---no just d= ead. >=20 > Learn from the pilots that exemplify good flying habits. Listen to them. > Emulate them.=20 >=20 > Case in point. Would you put your family on an airline if you knew in adv= ance > the pilot was going to buzz the airfield or do some stunt aerobatics to s= how > off to some friends? Probably not. Why not? So why do it in your Lancair? > Because it is fun? What do you really know about low altitude flying? Wha= t are > the hazards, what is the risk? The Navy20and Marine Corps dedicated entir= e > training syllabi to low altitude flying because of the numbers of aircraf= t > they were losing in the low altitude environment. In the late 80's and ea= rly > 90's, 30% of the Navy/ Marine Corps tacair (fighter) losses were controll= ed > flight into terrain (CFIT) ie. low and fast on aurthorized training missi= ons. >=20 > Sometimes flying isn't all about having fun,showing off the toy, or impre= ssing > the neighborhood. In my book it is about acting responsibly, getting to m= y > destination in one piece and delivering the precious friends and family t= o the > destination in one piece. It ain't "Topgun". If you want to fly like Mave= rick > and Goose, join the Navy --or if you want to fly in the second best flyin= g > organization in the world join the Air Force. Can you have fun in your > Lancair? Sure... but you don't have to put yourself and your passenger at= risk > to do it.=20 >=20 > Why does general aviation have a high accident rate? There are many reaso= ns > such as training, experience, equipment, operating environment, operating > rules, etc. BUT if we addressed training alone you would find that the av= erage > GA private pilot has only 20-30 hours of flight instruction before gettin= g a > private piltot certificate. A Naval Aviator, by contrast has had two year= s > minimum in training command, close to two hundred hours of flying (much o= f it > with an instructor) and then is sent to the boat (aircraft carrier) in a = jet > where the aviator is "day qualified." BIG difference in amount and qualit= y of > tr aining. Two years in classroom , in simulators or in the cockpit. >=20 > On the other hand the GA private pilot trained in the GA world with a bra= nd > new ticket is minimally qualified to act as PIC with passengers. Why? He = or > she signs up at the local airport to learn, probably just watched John & > Martha King on a DVD, got some home study guide and memorized the answere= s to > the written test and is proud they got a 75, came in one or twice a month= for > a flying lesson and after two years of intermittent lessons with three > differnet 22 year old (300 hour) flight instructors on the way to the > airlines got a ticket from the local DPE. Remember what the DPE said when= he > issued you your private pilot certificate? "This is a ticket to learn." T= he > brand new private pilot can get around the pattern under ideal conditions > without scratching the paint. Can usually get to the practice area and ba= ck > without getting lost (if the GPS is working). The GA private pilot is tra= ined > to minimal standards that will not change in spite of the change in techn= ology > because the 800 pound gorilla in Frederick, MD will not allow the FAA to > change it. Unfortunatley, some pilots who were trained to this standard t= hink > they can fly to the military standard. Got news for you.. they can't, at = least > not out of the box. Can you get there? Yes. It takes lot's more training = and > experience. My experience as a flight instructor and as an accident > investigator shows me that only about 10% of20the GA pilot population tak= es > recurrent training or advanced training of any sorts--ever. Why? Most of = them > think they know all there is to flying. There is a lot more to learn. >=20 > For example, stalls. The successful private pilot only has to demonstrate= two > stalls on a checkride. Power off and power on. Here is the Power off Stal= l. > Pretty basic. Want to know why many folks are afraid of stalls? Because t= his > is all they have ever done. And many haven't done one since they got thei= r > private ticket. No accelerated stalls, cross control stalls, no upright s= pins, > inverted spins etc. in the Private PIlot syllabus. The naval aviator gets= all > of this in his first 50 hours. >=20 > Private Pilot Practical Test: >=20 > B. TASK: POWER-OFF STALLS (ASEL and ASES) > REFERENCES: FAA-H-8083-3, AC 61-67; POH/AFM. > Objective. To determine that the applicant: > 1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to power-off stalls. > 2. Selects an entry altitude that allows the task to be completed no > lower than 1,500 feet (460 meters) AGL. > 3. Establishes a stabilized descent in the approach or landing > configuration, as specified by the examiner. > 4. Transitions smoothly from the approach or landing attitude to a pitch > attitude that will induce a stall. > 5. Maintains a specified heading, =B110=B0, in straight flight; maintains a > specified angle of bank not to exceed 20=B0, =B110=B0; in turning flight, > while inducing the stall. > 6. Recognizes and recovers promptly after the stall occurs by > simultaneously reducing the angle of attack, increasing power to > maximum allowable, and leveling the wings to return to a straightand- > level flight attitude with a minimum loss of altitude appropriate > for the airplane. > 7. Retracts the flaps to the recommended setting; retracts the landing > gear, if retractable, after a positive rate of climb is established. > 8. Accelerates to VX or VY speed before the final flap retraction; return= s >=20 > to the altitude, heading, and airspeed specified by the examiner. >=20 > =20 > fmi see=20 > http://www.faa.gov/education_research/testing/airmen/test_standards/pilot= /medi > a/FAA-S-8081-14A.pdf >=20 >=20 > So here are my recommendations in case you missed it before: > =3D0 A > We all benefit from more training. If I had to make a list of recommendat= ions > to the group on how they could improve their flying skills and reduce the= ir > risk of having an accident it would be this: >=20 > 1. Upgrade your pilot certificate. If you have a private pilot certificat= e get > a commercial certificate. If you have a commercial certificate get an ATP= . You > already have the most expensive part of flight training sitting in your > hangar. Put it to good use! The training to upgrade exposes you to so muc= h > more. You don't have to have aspirations of flying heavy metal to benefit= from > this upgrade training. >=20 > 2. Get a new rating or certificate in something totally different. It wil= l > broaden you flying skills in ways you cannot imagine. I got a seaplane ra= ting > a couple of years ago. Recently I added a glider certificate. I land "eng= ine > out" every time in a glider. No sweat! >=20 > 3. Sign up for the FAA FAAST program. Take the online courses. Great new > training material. Structured program. And it is free! See www.faa.safety= .gov >=20 > 4. Take a flight review once a year with an instructor who specializes in= your > aircraft type. Take an IPC every six months if you fly IFR. >=20 > 5. Enroll the services of a Master CFI. They are the country's best fligh= t > instructors. see http://www.nafinet.org/mastercfi/master_lookup.html Do = more > than the min imum required by the FAR's. >=20 > 6. And a couple of others.... take an aerobatic course. There are many > excellent instructors that specialize in aerobatics. Take a formation fly= ing > course-- and learn how to do it right. >=20 > Have fun, know the hazards, and make informed decisions about the risk of > flying.=20 >=20 > Jeff Edwards > MCFI (I) >=20 >=20 >=20 > Get the MapQuest Toolbar > . Directions, Tra= ffic, > Gas Prices & More! >=20 --B_3303711934_127100 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: [LML] Re: Lancair Accidents Why would you want to practice stalling a plane such as a IVP or IVPT that= is quick to enter a spin and may or may not be recoverable?


On 9/7/08 3:08 PM, "Taylor, David" <dtaylor@crescentpark.com> wrote:

<= SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt'>Jeff,
 
We agree about 80%, =A0but I think you’re missing my point about pilot = behavior and training and mindset.=A0 (I also need to be more careful about pr= oviding you with easy plays on “dead serious” words.)=A0 Lancair p= ilots need more training – that’s my point too!!!!=A0 But I am say= ing that we need some concrete recommendations for making this happen.=A0 We d= isagree about how to get the attention of the Lancair population out there.=A0= I contend that treating them like 8 year olds =A0is counter-productive.=A0 (the= y will tune you out.)
 
But the bottom of your post is exactly what we need to talk about.=A0 There n= eeds to be a list of additional things pilots are trained on.=A0 There also ne= eds to be a revision of the mindset about training in general on Lancairs.=A0 = IE – we need to fly these planes in constant training mode, and we nee= d to set aside specific flights as training flights where we do nothing else= but go over some piece of the curriculum until we have a level of competenc= y in it.
 
I am appealing to you because of your position as a Lancair trainer.=A0 There= are things missing from the curriculum.=A0 For example as ive said many times= , I absolutely think we need more stall awareness training as you talked abo= ut below.=A0
 
The bottom line:=A0 Lancair pilots have a significant responsibility if they = want to fly safely.=A0 Heres a for example:=A0 if you fly a Lancair and do not f= ully understand ATC’s roll in Thunderstorm avoidance, you need to take= an hour or so and go thru the FAA course on-line which is very good and exp= lains exactly what ATC does and does not do.=A0 IF YOU DO NOT DO THIS AND/OR D= O NOT HAVE THIS KNOWLEDGE YOU ARE BEING IRRESPONSIBLE.=A0 (see how simple that= is.)
 
Dave T
Legacy
 
 

From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf O= f vtailjeff@aol.com
Sent: Fri, September 05, 2008 0:47
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: Lancair Accidents
David,

Please please Jeff, think of some useful concrete recommendations f= or our behavior as pilots and let us know what they are………= ..  (I have already posted 3 of them.)
I am t= rying to modify your behavior but I am not having much luck. You think every= Lancair pilot is "dead serious" about the "entire process&qu= ot;.  I disagree. Some are, some are not. I currently have an accident = case in which the Lancair pilot never got a flight review in over 20 years. = Dead serious?-- no just dead. Another gent took off from Oshkosh with a know= n malfunctioning engine that he was urged to have fixed before he departed. = He did not. His aircraft was also out of annual (condition inspection). Dead= serious? ---no just dead.

Learn from the pilots that exemplify good flying habits. Listen to them. Em= ulate them.

Case in point. Would you put your family on an airline if you knew in advan= ce the pilot was going to buzz the airfield or do some stunt aerobatics to s= how off to some friends? Probably not. Why not? So why do it in your Lancair= ? Because it is fun? What do you really know about low altitude flying? What= are the hazards, what is the risk? The Navy20and Marine Corps dedicated ent= ire training syllabi to low altitude flying because of the numbers of aircra= ft they were losing in the low altitude environment. In the late 80's and ea= rly 90's, 30% of the Navy/ Marine Corps tacair (fighter) losses were control= led flight into terrain (CFIT) ie. low and fast on aurthorized training miss= ions.

Sometimes flying isn't all about having fun,showing off the toy, or impress= ing the neighborhood. In my book it is about acting responsibly, getting to = my destination in one piece and delivering the precious friends and family t= o the destination in one piece. It ain't "Topgun". If you want to = fly like Maverick and Goose, join the Navy --or if you want to fly in the se= cond best flying organization in the world join the Air Force. Can you have = fun in your Lancair? Sure... but you don't have to put yourself and your pas= senger at risk to do it.

Why does general aviation have a high accident rate? There are many reasons= such as training, experience, equipment, operating environment, operating r= ules, etc. BUT if we addressed training alone you would find that the averag= e GA private pilot has only 20-30 hours of flight instruction before getting= a private piltot certificate. A Naval Aviator, by contrast has had two year= s minimum in training command, close to two hundred hours of flying (much of= it with an instructor) and then is sent to the boat (aircraft carrier) in a= jet where the aviator is "day qualified." BIG difference in amoun= t and quality of tr aining. Two years in classroom , in simulators or in the= cockpit.

On the other hand the GA private pilot trained in the GA world with a brand= new ticket is minimally qualified to act as PIC with passengers. Why? He or= she signs up at the local airport to learn, probably just watched John &= ; Martha King on a DVD, got some home study guide and memorized the answeres= to the written test and is proud they got a 75, came in one or twice a mont= h for a flying lesson and after two years of intermittent lessons with three= differnet  22 year old (300 hour) flight instructors on the way to the= airlines got a ticket from the local DPE. Remember what the DPE said when h= e issued you your private pilot certificate? "This is a ticket to learn= ." The brand new private pilot can get around the pattern under ideal c= onditions without scratching the paint. Can usually get to the practice area= and back without getting lost (if the GPS is working). The GA private pilot= is trained to minimal standards that will not change in spite of the change= in technology because the 800 pound gorilla in Frederick, MD will not allow= the FAA to change it. Unfortunatley, some pilots who were trained to this s= tandard think they can fly to the military standard. Got news for you.. they= can't, at least not out of the box. Can you get there? Yes. It takes lot's = more training and experience. My experience as a flight instructor and as an= accident investigator shows me that only about 10% of20the GA pilot populat= ion takes recurrent training or advanced training of any sorts--ever. Why? M= ost of them think they know all there is to flying. There is a lot more to l= earn.

For example, stalls. The successful private pilot only has to demonstrate t= wo stalls on a checkride. Power off and power on. Here is the Power off Stal= l. Pretty basic. Want to know why many folks are afraid of stalls? Because t= his is all they have ever done. And many haven't done one since they got the= ir private ticket. No accelerated stalls, cross control stalls, no upright s= pins, inverted spins etc. in the Private PIlot syllabus. The naval aviator g= ets all of this in his first 50 hours.

Private Pilot Practical Test:

B. TASK: POWER-OFF STALLS (ASEL and ASES)
REFERENCES: FAA-H-8083-3, AC 61-67; POH/AFM.
Objective. To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to power-off stalls.
2. Selects an entry altitude that allows the task to be completed no
lower than 1,500 feet (460 meters) AGL.
3. Establishes a stabilized descent in the approach or landing
configuration, as specified by the examiner.
4. Transitions smoothly from the approach or landing attitude to a pitch attitude that will induce a stall.
5. Maintains a specified heading, ±10°, in straight flight; main= tains a
specified angle of bank not to exceed 20°, ±10°; in turning = flight,
while inducing the stall.
6. Recognizes and recovers promptly after the stall occurs by
simultaneously reducing the angle of attack, increasing power to
maximum allowable, and leveling the wings to return to a straightand-
level flight attitude with a minimum loss of altitude appropriate
for the airplane.
7. Retracts the flaps to the recommended setting; retracts the landing
gear, if retractable, after a positive rate of climb is established.
8. Accelerates to VX or VY speed before the final flap retraction; return= s

to the altitude, heading, and airspeed specified by the examiner.

 
fmi see http://www.faa.gov/education_resea= rch/testing/airmen/test_standards/pilot/media/FAA-S-8081-14A.pdf


So here are my recommendations in case you missed it before:
=3D0 A
We all benefit from more training. If I had to make a list of recommendatio= ns to the group on how they could improve their flying skills and reduce the= ir risk of having an accident it would be this:

1. Upgrade your pilot certificate. If you have a private pilot certificate = get a commercial certificate. If you have a commercial certificate get an AT= P. You already have the most expensive part of flight training sitting in yo= ur hangar. Put it to good use! The training to upgrade exposes you to so muc= h more. You don't have to have aspirations of flying heavy metal to benefit = from this upgrade training.  

2. Get a new rating or certificate in something totally different. It will = broaden you flying skills in ways you cannot imagine. I got a seaplane ratin= g a couple of years ago. Recently I added a glider certificate. I land "= ;engine out" every time in a glider. No sweat!

3. Sign up for the FAA FAAST program. Take the online courses. Great new tr= aining material. Structured program. And it is free! See www.faa.safety.gov =

4. Take a flight review once a year with an instructor who specializes in y= our aircraft type. Take an IPC every six months if you fly IFR.

5. Enroll the services of a Master CFI. They are the country's best flight = instructors. see http://www.nafinet.org/mastercfi/master_lookup.html  Do more tha= n the min imum required by the FAR's.

6. And a couple of others.... take an aerobatic course. There are many exce= llent instructors that specialize in aerobatics. Take a formation flying cou= rse-- and learn how to do it right.

Have fun, know the hazards, and make informed decisions about the risk of f= lying.

Jeff Edwards
MCFI (I)

Get the MapQ= uest Toolbar <http://mapquest.com/toolbar?ncid=3Dmpqmap00050000000010> . Directi= ons, Traffic, Gas Prices & More!

--B_3303711934_127100--