X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 15:30:14 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from [64.12.143.100] (HELO imo-m12.mail.aol.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.7) with ESMTP id 3118832 for lml@lancaironline.net; Sun, 07 Sep 2008 21:24:00 -0400 Received: from VTAILJEFF@aol.com by imo-m12.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r10.8.) id q.d1f.3251559a (37049) for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2008 21:23:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtprly-ma01.mx.aol.com (smtprly-ma01.mx.aol.com [64.12.207.140]) by cia-db03.mx.aol.com (v121_r2.11) with ESMTP id MAILCIADB037-90b948c47ea4329; Sun, 07 Sep 2008 21:23:48 -0400 Received: from WEBMAIL-MC14 (webmail-mc14.webmail.aol.com [64.12.170.91]) by smtprly-ma01.mx.aol.com (v121_r2.12) with ESMTP id MAILSMTPRLYMA012-5c4448c47e9c3b2; Sun, 07 Sep 2008 21:23:40 -0400 References: X-Original-To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Lancair Accidents X-Original-Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2008 21:23:40 -0400 X-AOL-IP: 66.66.210.250 In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: vtailjeff@aol.com X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8CADF68A8F001D5_97C_5498_WEBMAIL-MC14.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 38575-STANDARD Received: from 66.66.210.250 by WEBMAIL-MC14.sysops.aol.com (64.12.170.91) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Sun, 07 Sep 2008 21:23:40 -0400 X-Original-Message-Id: <8CADF68A8DA8CC6-97C-2931@WEBMAIL-MC14.sysops.aol.com> X-Spam-Flag:NO ----------MB_8CADF68A8F001D5_97C_5498_WEBMAIL-MC14.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" David, I have given a number of recommendations BUT there is no easy short cut to b= ecoming a good pilot. How do you get to be a great golfer, or a fantastic mu= sician, doctor, etc.? How did Tiger Woods or Derek Jeter get to the top of t= heir repsective game? Trainig & Practice. What do you do for a living and ho= w long did it take to perfect your craft? Ten years ? Twenty years? My brother in law, an anesthiologist,=C2=A0upon purchasing a Mooney after 20= years of not flying at all asked me to give him some flight instruction and= get him back up to speed. One particular day he was having difficulty maste= ring a particular task. He asked my how long it would take him to become as=20= good as me at that task. I looked him in the eye and asked him how long he t= hought it would take me to become an anesthiologist.=20 If you want to be as safe as you can be you have to study the causes of thes= e accidents in a post mortem sense and ask why did they occur. What are the=20= hazards in aviation? You cannot avoid the hazards if you do not know they ex= ist. Weather, poorly maintained aircraft, poor pilot skills, poor decision m= aking skills all contribute to these accidents. These are=C2=A0the hazards a= nd there are many more.=20 I would put "decision making"=C2=A0at the top of the list. Flying is more ab= out decision making than pure stick and rudder skills. You can be an average= stick and rudder guy but have superior decision making skills and avoid haz= ards that bite a better stick and=3D2 0rudder pilot.=20 I am not saying be afraid. Many pilots have expressed a fear of stalling the= IVP. I don't fear it-- I respect it. I know the risk is there and I stay aw= ay from it. Fear is not a good thing to have in the cockpit-- it clouds deci= son making.=20 Once you understand the hazards- construct your list of do's and don'ts. Abi= de by them. Jeff -----Original Message----- From: Taylor, David To: lml@lancaironline.net Sent: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 5:08 pm Subject: [LML] Re: Lancair Accidents Jeff, =C2=A0 We agree about 80%, =C2=A0but I think you=E2=80=99re missing my point about=20= pilot behavior and training and mindset.=C2=A0 (I also need to be more caref= ul about providing you with easy plays on =E2=80=9Cdead serious=E2=80=9D wor= ds.)=C2=A0 Lancair pilots need more training =E2=80=93 that=E2=80=99s my poi= nt too!!!!=C2=A0 But I am saying that we need some concrete recommendations=20= for making this happen.=C2=A0 We disagree about how to get the attention of=20= the Lancair population out there.=C2=A0 I contend that treating them like 8=20= year olds =C2=A0is counter-productive.=C2=A0 (they will tune you out.) =C2=A0 But the bottom of your post is exactly what we need to talk about.=C2=A0 The= re needs to be a list of additional things pilots are trained on.=C2=A0 Ther= e also needs to be a revision of the mindset about training in general on La= ncairs.=C2=A0 IE =E2=80=93 we need to fly these planes in constant training=20= mode, and we need to set aside specific flights as training flights whe re we do nothing else but go over some piece of the curriculum until we have= a level of competency in it. =C2=A0 I am appealing to you because of your position as a Lancair trainer.=C2=A0 T= here are things missing from the curriculum.=C2=A0 For example as ive said m= any times, I absolutely think we need more stall awareness training as you t= alked about below.=C2=A0=20 =C2=A0 The bottom line:=C2=A0 Lancair pilots have a significant responsibility if t= hey want to fly safely.=C2=A0 Heres a for example:=C2=A0 if you fly a Lancai= r and do not fully understand ATC=E2=80=99s roll in Thunderstorm avoidance,=20= you need to take an hour or so and go thru the FAA course on-line which is v= ery good and explains exactly what ATC does and does not do.=C2=A0 IF YOU DO= NOT DO THIS AND/OR DO NOT HAVE THIS KNOWLEDGE YOU ARE BEING IRRESPONSIBLE.= =C2=A0 (see how simple that is.) =C2=A0 Dave T Legacy =C2=A0 =C2=A0 From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of vtail= jeff@aol.com Sent: Fri, September 05, 2008 0:47 To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Re: Lancair Accidents =C2=A0 David, Please please Jeff, think of some useful concrete recommendations for our be= havior as pilots and let us know what they are=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6..= =C2=A0 (I have already posted 3 of them.) I am trying to modify your behavior but I am not having much luck.=C2=A0You=20= think every Lancair pilot is "dead serious" about the "entire process".=C2= =A0 I disagree. Some are, some are not. I currently have an acci dent=C2=A0case in which the Lancair pilot never got a flight review in over=20= 20 years. Dead serious?-- no just dead. Another gent took off from Oshkosh w= ith a known malfunctioning engine that he was urged to have fixed before he=20= departed. He did not. His aircraft was also out of annual (condition inspect= ion). Dead serious? ---no just dead.=20 Learn from the pilots that exemplify good flying habits. Listen to them. Emu= late them.=20 Case in point. Would you put your family on an airline if you knew in advanc= e the pilot was going to buzz the airfield or do some stunt aerobatics to sh= ow off to some friends? Probably not. Why not? So why do it in your Lancair?= Because it is fun? What do you really know about low altitude flying? What=20= are the hazards, what is the risk? The Navy20and Marine Corps dedicated enti= re training syllabi to low altitude flying because of the numbers of aircraf= t they were losing in the low altitude environment. In the late 80's and ear= ly 90's, 30% of the Navy/ Marine Corps tacair (fighter) losses were controll= ed flight into terrain (CFIT) ie. low and fast on aurthorized training missi= ons. Sometimes flying isn't all about having fun,showing off the toy, or impressi= ng the neighborhood. In my book it is about acting responsibly, getting to m= y destination in one piece and delivering the precious friends and family to= the destination in one piece. It ain't "Topgun". If you want to fly like Ma= verick and Goose, join the Navy --or if you want to fly in the second best f= lying org anization in the world join the Air Force. Can you have fun in your Lancair?= Sure... but you don't have to put yourself and your passenger at risk to do= it.=20 Why=C2=A0does general aviation have a high accident rate? There are many rea= sons such as training, experience, equipment, operating environment, operati= ng rules, etc. BUT if we addressed training alone you would find that the av= erage GA private pilot has only 20-30 hours of flight instruction before get= ting a private piltot certificate. A Naval Aviator, by contrast has had two=20= years minimum in training command, close to two hundred hours of flying (muc= h of it with an instructor) and=C2=A0then is sent to the boat (aircraft carr= ier) in a jet where the aviator is "day qualified." BIG difference in amount= and quality of tr aining. Two years in classroom , in simulators or in the=20= cockpit.=20 On the other hand the GA private pilot trained in the GA world with a brand=20= new ticket=C2=A0is minimally qualified to act as PIC with passengers. Why? H= e or she signs up at the local airport to learn, probably just watched John=20= & Martha King on a DVD, got some home study guide and memorized the answeres= to the written test and is proud they got a 75, came in one or twice a mont= h for a flying lesson and after two years of intermittent lessons with=C2= =A0three differnet =C2=A022 year old (300 hour) flight instructors on the wa= y to the airlines got a ticket from the local DPE. Remember what the DPE sai= d when he issued you your private pilot certificate? "This is a ticket to learn."=C2=A0The brand new private pilot=C2=A0can get=20= around the pattern under ideal conditions without scratching the paint. Can=20= usually get to the practice area and back without getting lost (if the GPS i= s working). The GA private pilot is trained to minimal standards that will n= ot change in spite of the change in technology because the 800 pound gorilla= in Frederick, MD will not allow the FAA to change it. Unfortunatley, some p= ilots who were trained to this standard think they can fly to the military s= tandard. Got news for you..=C2=A0they can't, at least not out of the box. Ca= n you get there? Yes. It takes lot's more training and experience. My experi= ence as a flight instructor and as an accident investigator shows me that on= ly about 10% of20the GA pilot population takes recurrent training or advance= d training of any sorts--ever. Why? Most of them think they know all there i= s to flying. There is a lot more to learn.=20 For example, stalls. The successful private pilot only has to demonstrate tw= o stalls on a checkride. Power off and power on. Here is the Power off Stall= . Pretty basic. Want to know why many folks are afraid of stalls? Because th= is is all they have ever done. And many haven't done one since they got thei= r private ticket. No accelerated stalls, cross control stalls, no upright sp= ins, inverted spins=C2=A0etc. in the Private PIlot syllabus. The naval aviat= or gets all of this in his first 50 hours. Private Pilot Practical Test: B. TASK: POWER-OFF STALLS (ASE L and ASES) REFERENCES: FAA-H-8083-3, AC 61-67; POH/AFM. Objective. To determine that the applicant: 1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to power-off stalls. 2. Selects an entry altitude that allows the task to be completed no lower than 1,500 feet (460 meters) AGL. 3. Establishes a stabilized descent in the approach or landing configuration, as specified by the examiner. 4. Transitions smoothly from the approach or landing attitude to a pitch attitude that will induce a stall. 5. Maintains a specified heading, =C2=B110=C2=B0, in straight flight; mainta= ins a specified angle of bank not to exceed 20=C2=B0, =C2=B110=C2=B0; in turning f= light, while inducing the stall. 6. Recognizes and recovers promptly after the stall occurs by simultaneously reducing the angle of attack, increasing power to maximum allowable, and leveling the wings to return to a straightand- level flight attitude with a minimum loss of altitude appropriate for the airplane. 7. Retracts the flaps to the recommended setting; retracts the landing gear, if retractable, after a positive rate of climb is established. 8. Accelerates to VX or VY speed before the final flap retraction; returns to the altitude, heading, and airspeed specified by the examiner. =C2=A0 fmi see http://www.faa.gov/education_research/testing/airmen/test_standards/= pilot/media/FAA-S-8081-14A.pdf So here are my recommendations in case you missed it before: =3D0 A We all benefit from more training. If I had to make a list of recommendation= s to the=3D2 0group on how they could improve their flying skills and reduce their risk o= f having an accident it would be this: 1. Upgrade your pilot certificate. If you have a private pilot certificate g= et a commercial certificate. If you have a commercial certificate get an ATP= . You already have the most expensive part of flight training sitting in you= r hangar. Put it to good use! The training to upgrade exposes you to so much= more. You don't have to have aspirations of flying heavy metal to benefit f= rom this upgrade training.=C2=A0=20 2. Get a new rating or certificate in something totally different. It will b= roaden you flying skills in ways you cannot imagine. I got a seaplane rating= a couple of years ago. Recently I added a glider certificate. I land "engin= e out" every time in a glider. No sweat!=20 3. Sign up for the FAA FAAST program. Take the online courses. Great new tra= ining material. Structured program. And it is free! See www.faa.safety.gov=20 4. Take a flight review once a year with=C2=A0an instructor who specializes=20= in your aircraft type. Take an IPC every six months if you fly IFR.=20 5. Enroll the services of a Master CFI. They are the country's best flight i= nstructors. see http://www.nafinet.org/mastercfi/master_lookup.html=C2=A0= =C2=A0; Do more than the min imum required by the FAR's.=20 6. And a couple of others.... take an aerobatic course. There are many excel= lent instructors that specialize in aerobatics. Take a formation flying cour= se-- and learn how to do it right. Have fun, know the haz ards, and make informed decisions about the risk of flying.=20 Jeff Edwards MCFI (I) Get the MapQuest Toolbar. Directions, Traffic, Gas Prices & More!=20 ----------MB_8CADF68A8F001D5_97C_5498_WEBMAIL-MC14.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" David,

I have given a number of recommendations BUT there is no easy short cut to b= ecoming a good pilot. How do you get to be a great golfer, or a fantastic mu= sician, doctor, etc.? How did Tiger Woods or Derek Jeter get to the top of t= heir repsective game? Trainig & Practice. What do you do for a living an= d how long did it take to perfect your craft? Ten years ? Twenty years?

My brother in law, an anesthiologist, upon purchasing a Mooney after 20= years of not flying at all asked me to give him some flight instruction and= get him back up to speed. One particular day he was having difficulty maste= ring a particular task. He asked my how long it would take him to become as=20= good as me at that task. I looked him in the eye and asked him how long he t= hought it would take me to become an anesthiologist.

If you want to be as safe as you can be you have to study the causes of thes= e accidents in a post mortem sense and ask why did they occur. What are the=20= hazards in aviation? You cannot avoid the hazards if you do not know they ex= ist. Weather, poorly maintained aircraft, poor pilot skills, poor decision m= aking skills all contribute to these accidents. These are the hazards a= nd there are many more.

I would put "decision making" at the top of the list. Flying is more ab= out decision making than pure stick and rudder skills. You can be an average= stick and rudder guy but have superior decision making skills and avoid haz= ards that bite a better stick and rudder pilot.

I am not saying be afraid. Many pilots have expressed a fear of stalling the= IVP. I don't fear it-- I respect it. I know the risk is there and I stay aw= ay from it. Fear is not a good thing to have in the cockpit-- it clouds deci= son making.

Once you understand the hazards- construct your list of do's and don'ts. Abi= de by them.

Jeff

-----Original Message-----
From: Taylor, David <dtaylor@crescentpark.com>
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sent: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 5:08 pm
Subject: [LML] Re: Lancair Accidents

Jeff,
 
We agree about 80%,  but I think you= =E2=80=99re missing my point about pilot behavior and training and mindset.&= nbsp; (I also need to be more careful about providing you with easy plays on= =E2=80=9Cdead serious=E2=80=9D words.)  Lancair pilots need more train= ing =E2=80=93 that=E2=80=99s my point too!!!!  But I am saying that we=20= need some concrete recommendations for making this happen.  We disagree= about how to get the attention of the Lancair population out there.  I= contend that treating them like 8 year olds  is counter-productive.&nb= sp; (they will tune you out.)
 
But the bottom of your post is exactly wha= t we need to talk about.  There needs to be a list of additional things= pilots are trained on.  There also needs to be a revision of the minds= et about training in general on Lancairs.  IE =E2=80=93 we need to fly=20= these planes in constant training mode, and we need to set aside specific fl= ights as training flights where we do nothing else but go over some piece of= the curriculum until we have a level of competency in it.
 
I am appealing to you because of your positi= on as a Lancair trainer.  There are things missing from the curriculum.=   For example as ive said many times, I absolutely think we need more s= tall awareness training as you talked about below. 
 
The bottom line:  Lancair pilots have a= significant responsibility if they want to fly safely.  Heres a for ex= ample:  if you fly a Lancair and do not fully understand ATC=E2=80=99s=20= roll in Thunderstorm avoidance, you need to take an hour or so and go thru t= he FAA course on-line which is very good and explains exactly what ATC does and does not do.  IF YOU DO NOT DO THIS AND/OR DO NOT HAVE THIS K= NOWLEDGE YOU ARE BEING IRRESPONSIBLE.  (see how simple that is.)=
 
Dave T
Legacy
 
 
From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of vtailjeff@aol.com
Sent: Fri, September 05, 2008 0:47
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: Lancair Accidents
 
David,
Please please Jeff, think of some useful concr= ete recommendations for our behavior as pilots and let us know what they are= =E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6..  (I have already posted 3 of them.)
I a= m trying to modify your behavior but I am not having much luck. You thi= nk every Lancair pilot is "dead serious" about the "entire process".  I= disagree. Some are, some are not. I currently have an accident case in= which the Lancair pilot never got a flight review in over 20 years. Dead se= rious?-- no just dead. Another gent took off from Oshkosh with a known malfu= nctioning engine that he was urged to have fixed before he departed. He did=20= not. His aircraft was also out of annual (condition inspection). Dead seriou= s? ---no just dead.

Learn from the pilots that exemplify good flying habits. Listen to them. Emu= late them.

Case in point. Would you put your family on an airline if you knew in advanc= e the pilot was going to buzz the airfield or do some stunt aerobatics to sh= ow off to some friends? Probably not. Why not? So why do it in your Lancair?= Because it is fun? What do you really know about low altitude flying? What=20= are the hazards, what is the risk? The Navy20and Marine Corps dedicated enti= re training syllabi to low altitude flying because of the numbers of aircraf= t they were losin g in the low altitude environment. In the late 80's and early 90's, 30% of t= he Navy/ Marine Corps tacair (fighter) losses were controlled flight into te= rrain (CFIT) ie. low and fast on aurthorized training missions.

Sometimes flying isn't all about having fun,showing off the toy, or impressi= ng the neighborhood. In my book it is about acting responsibly, getting to m= y destination in one piece and delivering the precious friends and family to= the destination in one piece. It ain't "Topgun". If you want to fly like Ma= verick and Goose, join the Navy --or if you want to fly in the second best f= lying organization in the world join the Air Force. Can you have fun in your= Lancair? Sure... but you don't have to put yourself and your passenger at r= isk to do it.

Why does general aviation have a high accident rate? There are many rea= sons such as training, experience, equipment, operating environment, operati= ng rules, etc. BUT if we addressed training alone you would find that the av= erage GA private pilot has only 20-30 hours of flight instruction before get= ting a private piltot certificate. A Naval Aviator, by contrast has had two=20= years minimum in training command, close to two hundred hours of flying (muc= h of it with an instructor) and then is sent to the boat (aircraft carr= ier) in a jet where the aviator is "day qualified." BIG difference in amount= and quality of tr aining. Two years in classroom , in simulators or in the=20= cockpit.

On the other hand the GA private pilot tr ained in the GA world with a brand new ticket is minimally qualified to= act as PIC with passengers. Why? He or she signs up at the local airport to= learn, probably just watched John & Martha King on a DVD, got some home= study guide and memorized the answeres to the written test and is proud the= y got a 75, came in one or twice a month for a flying lesson and after two y= ears of intermittent lessons with three differnet  22 year old (30= 0 hour) flight instructors on the way to the airlines got a ticket from the=20= local DPE. Remember what the DPE said when he issued you your private pilot=20= certificate? "This is a ticket to learn." The brand new private pilot&n= bsp;can get around the pattern under ideal conditions without scratching the= paint. Can usually get to the practice area and back without getting lost (= if the GPS is working). The GA private pilot is trained to minimal standards= that will not change in spite of the change in technology because the 800 p= ound gorilla in Frederick, MD will not allow the FAA to change it. Unfortuna= tley, some pilots who were trained to this standard think they can fly to th= e military standard. Got news for you.. they can't, at least not out of= the box. Can you get there? Yes. It takes lot's more training and experienc= e. My experience as a flight instructor and as an accident investigator show= s me that only about 10% of20the GA pilot population takes recurrent trainin= g or advanced training of any sorts--ever. Why? Most of them think they kno w all there is to flying. There is a lot more to learn.

For example, stalls. The successful private pilot only has to demonstrate tw= o stalls on a checkride. Power off and power on. Here is the Power off Stall= . Pretty basic. Want to know why many folks are afraid of stalls? Because th= is is all they have ever done. And many haven't done one since they got thei= r private ticket. No accelerated stalls, cross control stalls, no upright sp= ins, inverted spins etc. in the Private PIlot syllabus. The naval aviat= or gets all of this in his first 50 hours.

Private Pilot Practical Test:

B. TASK: POWER-OFF STALLS (ASEL and ASES)
REFERENCES: FAA-H-8083-3, AC 61-67; POH/AFM.
Objective. To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to power-off sta= lls.
2. Selects an entry altitude that allows the task to be comple= ted no< /SPAN>
lower than 1,500 feet (460 meters) AGL.
3. Establishes a stabilized descent in the approach or landing=
configuration, as specified by the examiner.
4. Transitions smoothly from the approach or landing attitude=20= to a pitch
attitude that will induce a stall.
5. Maintains a specified heading, =C2=B110=C2=B0, in straight=20= flight; maintains a
specified angle of bank not to exceed 20=C2=B0, =C2=B110=C2= =B0; in turning flight,
while inducing the stall.
6. Recognizes and recovers promptly after the stall occurs by<= /SPAN>
simultaneously reducing the angle of attack, increasing power=20= to
maximum allowable, and leveling the wings to return to a str= aightand-
level flight attitude with a minimum loss of altitude appropri= ate
for the airplane.
7. Retracts the flaps to the recommended setting; retracts the= landing
gear, if retractable, after a positive rate of climb is establ= ished.
8. Accelerates to VX or VY speed before the final flap retraction; r= eturns
to the altitude, heading, and airspeed specified by the examin= er.

 
fmi see http://www.faa.go= v/education_research/testing/ airmen/test_standards/pilot/media/FAA-S-8081-14A.pdf


So here are my recommendations in case you missed it before:
=3D0 A
We all benefit from more training. If I had to make a list of recommendation= s to the group on how they could improve their flying skills and reduce thei= r risk of having an accident it would be this:

1. Upgrade your pilot certificate. If you have a private pilot certificate g= et a commercial certificate. If you have a commercial certificate get an ATP= . You already have the most expensive part of flight training sitting in you= r hangar. Put it to good use! The training to upgrade exposes you to so much= more. You don't have to have aspirations of flying heavy metal to benefit f= rom this upgrade training. 

2. Get a new rating or certificate in something totally different. It will b= roaden you flying skills in ways you cannot imagine. I got a seaplane rating= a couple of years ago. Recently I added a glider certificate. I land "engin= e out" every time in a glider. No sweat!

3. Sign up for the FAA FAAST program. Take the online courses. Great new tra= ining material. Structured program. And it is free! See www.faa.safety.gov

4. Take a flight review once a year with an instructor who specializes=20= in your aircraft type. Take an IPC every six months if you fly IFR.

5. Enroll the services of a Master CFI. They are the country's best flight i= nstructors. see http://www.nafinet.org/mastercfi/master_lo= okup.html  ; Do more than the min imum required by the FAR's.=20=

6. And a couple of others.... take an aerobatic course. There are many excel= lent instructors that specialize in aerobatics. Take a formation flying cour= se-- and learn how to do it right.

Have fun, know the hazards, and make informed decisions about the risk of fl= ying.

Jeff Edwards
MCFI (I)


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