X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2008 08:28:40 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from imo-d22.mx.aol.com ([205.188.144.208] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.7) with ESMTP id 3115450 for lml@lancaironline.net; Fri, 05 Sep 2008 08:08:24 -0400 Received: from VTAILJEFF@aol.com by imo-d22.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r10.8.) id q.cf9.40412b8b (29673) for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2008 08:08:23 -0400 (EDT) From: VTAILJEFF@aol.com X-Original-Message-ID: X-Original-Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 08:08:23 EDT Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Training (Engine Out Practice) X-Original-To: lml@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1220616503" X-Mailer: Unknown sub 34 X-Spam-Flag:NO -------------------------------1220616503 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jeff, You have elegantly described the risk reward decision process. Is your training/ flight testing scenario perfectly safe? No --it does have some risk, as you and others point out. But no training or flight testing scenario is perfectly safe. All you can do is reduce the risk to an acceptable and reasonable level. (I think I said that earlier this week ;) ) It sounds like you have done the analysis and come up with a solution and BEST PART OF ALL--provided the crowd with some data. Would I do it? if I had a long runway over a sparsley populated area. I went soaring last weekend in a Schweitzer 233 -- about the same glide ratio. No engine to feather. Are you prepared for the moment when the engine power goes to zero? Probably more than most. Well done! Jeff In a message dated 9/4/2008 11:50:28 P.M. Central Daylight Time, liegner@embarqmail.com writes: Just to clarify for those thinking about the engine OFF procedure and the outcome, my lancair friends in cyberspace, and for those worried about my decion to practice this. As we've all discussed, we practice what we might encounter to prepare ourselves for the unexpected. One can't fully practice an engine out in a simulator or the airplane; I know no simulator that shows the prop stopped in the video image, in front of the pilot, which is initially startleing. I haven't done this much, but I've done it to specifically learn a number of important and preplanned items (and some not expected). And I've shared them here because no one else has: best glide ratio, feather vs nonfeathered, etc. Hot starts are not a problem once you find out your particular method and what to do to make it work. Ask the pilots who give demo rides at OSH and SnF...they hot start all day, so they know what works. In the air, you have to watch for fuel flow and pressure, because you won't hear the pump change tone when it grabs gas and starts pushing. You have to watch a lot of things that at other times you use your ears to monitor. Duh...but a surprise. When you crank, the Buss voltage drops quickly. With my Cheltons on that Buss, when the batter drops below a certain level (~10.5v I think), the screens drop out, and the shortly they reboot. If you rely on them to give you engine or map or PFD info, you will be started when they suddenly go blank...watch the EAU and fly the airplane via other Buss and isolated Chelton. That was a real surprise. Attempting a restart is not like on the the ground...give it some gas and a couple blade turns. 30 seconds is a LONG time...get used to it, and be patient. At 18:1 glide, I have thirty miles and plenty of time. Try to relax, expand your vision to include a lot more. Stay focused and calm. If the airplane runs out of gas, but maintains oil pressure, and I have no gas elesewhere, I better have put that prop into full feather before the engine goes cold (despite my stupidity in allowing this situation to happen). Because if I don't feather the prop ASAP, a fuel exhaustion does not cause full feather counterweighted pitch change. Surprise...but obvious in retrospect. A good lesson. There are other lessons for another time. Risk awareness and assessment is important. Minimizing risk is our goal. Practicing catastrophic engine failure in the calm of a well studied scenario is better than being thrust into this situation unexpectedly. Just my opinion...we all have our different tolerances of risk, and I concede that others have opinions different from mine. But I know that we all care greatly about our friends on this listserv. Whether you agree with me or worry about me, I know you encourage me to always be thorough and careful. My HPAT instructors are out there listening to me. If they disagreed with my postings, they have my permission to open up a can of whoop ass in front of the group and flame me. Jeff L LIVP >For Jeff L: > >Your forced landing practice with the engine shut down, even tho >you are over a runway, really worries me, especially since the >L-IV/P has a long history of hot start problems. > >I'm not questioning the legality of the procedure (I would check >with your local FSDO just to be on the safe side). My concern is >with the added risk factor. What do you gain to justify the added >risk? When your engine will not restart, do you intend to declare >an emergency? Do you expect all other pilots to give you priority? >I guarantee that if you practice this procedure enough, you will >face this problem. > >I fly the SFO pattern at 1000 RPM and 120 kts but with the speed >brakes extended. I don't pull the prop because with an actual >engine failure, I don't expect to have oil pressure. My planned >touchdown is at 1/3 the length of the runway so if the engine quits >when I advance the throttle, the landing is routine. This works for >me. Just a suggestion.... > >Anyway, please don't take my concern as criticism as its not >intended as such. In my experience, flying in the vicinity of any >airport is one of the most dangerous situations you can be in. Why >increase the risk? > >With all the latest insurance concerns, adding unnecessary risk to >routine flying just isn't prudent. > >Regards, Bill Hogarty -- For archives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html **************It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047) -------------------------------1220616503 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jeff,
 
You have elegantly described the risk reward decision process. Is your=20 training/ flight testing scenario perfectly safe? No --it does have som= e=20 risk, as you and others point out. But no training or flight testing=20  scenario is perfectly safe. All you can do is reduce the risk to an=20 acceptable and reasonable level. (I think I said that earlier this week ;)=20 )  It sounds like you have done the analysis and come up with a solutio= n=20 and BEST PART OF ALL--provided the crowd with some data.
 
Would I do it?  if I had a long runway over a sparsley populated a= rea.=20
 
I went soaring last weekend in a Schweitzer 233 -- about the same glide= =20 ratio. No engine to feather.
 
Are you prepared for the moment when the engine power goes to zero?=20 Probably more than most.
 
Well done!
 
Jeff
 
In a message dated 9/4/2008 11:50:28 P.M. Central Daylight Time,=20 liegner@embarqmail.com writes:
<= FONT=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size= =3D2>Just to=20 clarify for those thinking about the engine OFF procedure and
the outc= ome,=20 my lancair friends in cyberspace, and for those worried
about my decio= n to=20 practice this.  As we've all discussed, we
practice what we might= =20 encounter to prepare ourselves for the
unexpected.  One can't ful= ly=20 practice an engine out in a simulator or
the airplane; I know no simul= ator=20 that shows the prop stopped in the
video image, in front of the pilot,= =20 which is initially startleing.

I haven't done this much, but I've d= one=20 it to specifically learn a
number of important and preplanned items (a= nd=20 some not expected).
And I've shared them here because no one else has:= =20 best glide ratio,
feather vs nonfeathered, etc.

Hot starts are=20= not=20 a problem once you find out your particular method
and what to do to m= ake=20 it work.  Ask the pilots who give demo rides
at OSH and SnF...the= y=20 hot start all day, so they know what works.

In the air, you have to= =20 watch for fuel flow and pressure, because you
won't hear the pump chan= ge=20 tone when it grabs gas and starts pushing.
You have to watch a lot of=20 things that at other times you use your
ears to monitor.  Duh...b= ut a=20 surprise.

When you crank, the Buss voltage drops quickly.  Wit= h my=20 Cheltons on
that Buss, when the batter drops below a certain level (~1= 0.5v=20 I
think), the screens drop out, and the shortly they reboot.  If=20= you=20
rely on them to give you engine or map or PFD info, you will be=20
started when they suddenly go blank...watch the EAU and fly the=20
airplane via other Buss and isolated Chelton.  That was a real=20
surprise.

Attempting a restart is not like on the the ground...= give=20 it some gas
and a couple blade turns.  30 seconds is a LONG=20 time...get used to
it, and be patient.  At 18:1 glide, I have thi= rty=20 miles and plenty of
time.  Try to relax, expand your vision to=20 include a lot more.  Stay
focused and calm.

If the airplan= e=20 runs out of gas, but maintains oil pressure, and I
have no gas elesewh= ere,=20 I better have put that prop into full feather
before the engine goes c= old=20 (despite my stupidity in allowing this
situation to happen).  Bec= ause=20 if I don't feather the prop ASAP, a
fuel exhaustion does not cause ful= l=20 feather counterweighted pitch
change.  Surprise...but obvious in=20 retrospect.  A good lesson.

There are other lessons for anothe= r=20 time.

Risk awareness and assessment is important.  Minimizing=20= risk=20 is our
goal.  Practicing catastrophic engine failure in the calm=20= of a=20 well
studied scenario is better than being thrust into this situation=20
unexpectedly.  Just my opinion...we all have our different tolera= nces=20
of risk, and I concede that others have opinions different from mine.=20
But I know that we all care greatly about our friends on this=20
listserv.  Whether you agree with me or worry about me, I know yo= u=20
encourage me to always be thorough and careful.

My HPAT instruc= tors=20 are out there listening to me.  If they disagreed
with my posting= s,=20 they have my permission to open up a can of whoop
ass in front of the=20 group and flame me.

Jeff L
LIVP



>For Jeff=20 L:
>
>Your forced landing practice with the engine shut=20 down,  even tho
>you are over a runway,  really worries m= e,=20 especially since the
>L-IV/P has a long history of hot start=20 problems.
>
>I'm not questioning the legality of the procedure= (I=20 would check
>with your local FSDO just to be on the safe side).&nbs= p;=20 My concern is
>with the added risk factor.  What do you gain t= o=20 justify the added
>risk?   When your engine will not rest= art,=20 do you intend to declare
>an emergency?  Do you expect all oth= er=20 pilots to give you priority?
>I guarantee that if you practice this= =20 procedure enough, you will
>face this problem.
>
>I fly= =20 the  SFO pattern at 1000 RPM and 120 kts but with the speed=20
>brakes extended.  I don't pull the prop because with an actua= l=20
>engine failure, I don't expect to have oil pressure.  My plan= ned=20
>touchdown is at 1/3 the length of the runway so if the engine quit= s=20
>when I advance the throttle, the landing is routine.  This wo= rks=20 for
>me.  Just a suggestion....
>
>Anyway, please=20 don't take my concern as criticism as its not
>intended as such.&nb= sp;=20 In my experience, flying in the vicinity of any
>airport is one of=20= the=20 most dangerous situations you can be in.  Why
>increase the=20 risk?
>
>With all the latest insurance concerns, adding=20 unnecessary risk to
>routine flying just isn't=20 prudent.
>
>Regards, Bill Hogarty


--
For archive= s=20 and unsub=20 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html
=



It's only a deal if it's=20= where you want to go. Find your travel deal <= B>here.
-------------------------------1220616503--