X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 21:09:12 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from imo-d22.mx.aol.com ([205.188.144.208] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0) with ESMTP id 813662 for lml@lancaironline.net; Thu, 03 Nov 2005 14:12:55 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.188.144.208; envelope-from=Sky2high@aol.com Received: from Sky2high@aol.com by imo-d22.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r6.3.) id q.1f8.16074301 (4214) for ; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 14:12:01 -0500 (EST) From: Sky2high@aol.com X-Original-Message-ID: <1f8.16074301.309bbb01@aol.com> X-Original-Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 14:12:01 EST Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Lancair 320 gear problem -- help wanted X-Original-To: lml@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1131045121" X-Mailer: 9.0 Security Edition for Windows sub 5009 X-Spam-Flag: NO -------------------------------1131045121 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob, In a message dated 11/3/2005 12:49:58 P.M. Central Standard Time, rbelshe@comcast.net writes: I would expect that the pump would just get hot if you powered both leads. It might trip the breaker if you held power on long enough. Yes, but how long before it gets hot? If you had the thermal protection wire connected, then heat would stop the pump. In other words, the pump gets hot when it runs continously. Did you really get the pump to run in the "wrong" direction some of the time? You said "at least six sequential connections to both wires were made separated by a second or so (Dn-Up, Up-Dn) and all but one resulted in the pump running primarily in the down direction with foaming visible in the up direction tube.." Do you mean the pump keeps running when you connect 12v to the "other" wire? Do you mean it starts in one direction and then reverses when you connect the second wire? It ran in a direction when power was sequentially connected to both leads. Yes. Yes. Yes. If the pump ever runs in the wrong direction it would open the wrong pressure switch and never shut down! No. At any pressure below the switch rated pressure, the switch contacts are closed. If it ran "confused", it is possible that no pressure would ever build up enough to OPEN any switch and it would just continue to run confused. Does anyone know how this motor is wound? I think it is probably a series motor with two field windings. It should be impossible to do what you reported. Try it on yours. Remember, I said if both wires were connected to power at the same time, the motor would not run. Seems to me some winding is more influential than another once action begins. Also, it has been noted that the motor relays are Ford starter relays. In automotive service they would be starting and interrupting over ten times the current they see in our application. Fusing of the contacts should be a rare (if ever, occurrence). In the instance where relay power is left on for a long time they could stick in the closed position due to an internal melt down of some sort. Not quite. The shellac-like winding coating and some other construction goop will melt when overheated. Two results are possible - jammed closed or slip sliding open when the power is removed from the coil and, after the stuff cools and re-hardens, the relay can be frozen shut or open. Mine was frozen closed as I had to pry the solenoid core out when I disassembled the relay. Thanks again for your experiment, and all the good info you provide this group. Please don't take this as criticism. No way - Skepticism is useful to shake out the truth. Besides that I'm a crusty old guy and a pilot to boot. Like you, I'm just trying to understand why people have so many problems with the LNC2 gear system. Fortunately, I have had none, except for a blown seal and a leaky (in one direction only) dump valve. Scott Krueger AKA Grayhawk Lancair N92EX IO320 SB 89/96 Aurora, IL (KARR) -------------------------------1131045121 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bob,
 
In a message dated 11/3/2005 12:49:58 P.M. Central Standard Time,=20 rbelshe@comcast.net writes:
<= FONT=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size= =3D2>
I would expec= t that the=20 pump would just get hot if you powered both leads.   It might tr= ip=20 the breaker if you held power on long enough. 
Yes, but how long before it gets hot?  If you had the thermal=20 protection wire connected, then heat would stop the pump.  In other wor= ds,=20 the pump gets hot when it runs continously.
 =
Did you really get the pump to run in the "wrong= "=20 direction some of the time?  You said  "at least six sequential=20 connections to both wires were made separated by a second or so=20 (Dn-Up, Up-Dn) and all but one resulted in the pump running primarily= in=20 the down direction with foaming visible in the up direction tube.." =20= Do=20 you mean the pump keeps running when you connect 12v to the "other"=20 wire?  Do you mean it starts in one direction and then reverses when=20= you=20 connect the second wire?
It ran in a direction when power was sequentially connected to both lea= ds.=20 Yes. Yes. Yes.
 
<= FONT=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size= =3D2>
 =
If the pump e= ver runs=20 in the wrong direction it would open the wrong pressure switch and never s= hut=20 down! 
No.  At any pressure below the switch rated pressure, the switch=20 contacts are closed.  If it ran "confused", it is possible that no pres= sure=20 would ever build up enough to OPEN any switch and it would just continu= e to=20 run confused.
  
Does anyone k= now how=20 this motor is wound?  I think it is probably a series motor with two=20 field windings.  It should be impossible to do what you=20 reported.
Try it on yours.  Remember, I said if both wires were connected to= =20 power at the same time, the motor would not run.  Seems to me some wind= ing=20 is more influential than another once action begins.
 
<= FONT=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size= =3D2>
 
Also, it has been noted that the mot= or=20 relays are Ford starter relays.   In automotive service they wou= ld=20 be starting and interrupting over ten times the current they see in our=20 application.  Fusing of the contacts should be a rare (if ever,=20 occurrence).   In the instance where relay power is left on for=20= a=20 long time they could stick in the closed position due to an internal=20= melt=20 down of some sort. 
Not quite.  The shellac-like winding coating and some other=20 construction goop will melt when overheated.  Two results are poss= ible=20 - jammed closed or slip sliding open when the power is removed from the=20 coil and, after the stuff cools and re-hardens, the relay can= be=20 frozen shut or open.  Mine was frozen closed as I had to pry the soleno= id=20 core out when I disassembled the relay.
 
<= FONT=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size= =3D2>
 
Thanks again for your experiment, an= d all=20 the good info you provide this group.   Please don't take this a= s=20 criticism.
No way - Skepticism is useful to shake out the truth.  Besides tha= t=20 I'm a crusty old guy and a pilot to boot.
 
Like you, I'm just trying to underst= and=20 why people have so many problems with the LNC2 gear system. =20
Fortunately, I have had none, except= for a=20 blown seal and a leaky (in one direction only) dump=20 valve.
Scott=20 Krueger AKA Grayhawk
Lancair N92EX IO320 SB 89/96
Aurora, IL=20 (KARR)



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