X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2013 12:18:01 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from nm26.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([98.138.90.89] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.7) with ESMTP id 6498011 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 01 Oct 2013 11:55:49 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.138.90.89; envelope-from=chris_zavatson@yahoo.com Received: from [98.138.226.179] by nm26.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Oct 2013 15:53:43 -0000 Received: from [98.139.212.206] by tm14.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Oct 2013 15:53:43 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1015.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Oct 2013 15:53:43 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 102217.29608.bm@omp1015.mail.bf1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 26620 invoked by uid 60001); 1 Oct 2013 15:53:42 -0000 DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Rocket-MIMEInfo:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=H/HcHmaOB+v1Wp04TZ5VGJ44f8Mor0a/tWr3/mMrnH3kR/mzlCaGpDB0Y3Maqie9SQ5yTRF6YfBsWQvbsWwxktLWfKIoDBGOmmku9wrZfwgplH8eOybsHzd/Nz7ZGvUufSWjzYztjViqCVeDWPfcwZxzCC6iWSunHbh0bP/1pig=; X-YMail-OSG: jc1oZfIVM1lsbZK_DDSpntOYZel1lWqeG9tA1JbrOs1WWLQ .JQ563ET7msPze2gK1HUNUqejcukpSpl7vrT5Av1nTZbh4MMuCk1R4cePRAN X8HWTQgfNDNO59FEbjkU_V9nhVDRPEW9F03d_KS98iri4qNCEobQTmT5o9N6 VPzpLJr30SvQXqtU5xQksezGgY38781FT7wiKRESukVIWdMoNMRqKmBwpyA7 tZFDxWCQd0dxgxkNBOOr22WgkEORgZyNS4hOES1ZYx3nbaAhAP5BL44t.z4r WCwH_GRmT1.bzCrVuaD2nuhU3iXcfsB8bh7T8_gvsrx8VlUXnW48sPqkBFtz lwsUEGGN2p1UjgLRe9tJmTWkOPFcxFx8C1VswRhXIVDP51npVSDlelQL1OBX 4Mk3E4x3vokziYOCLIp4INJn7TURVf7grhkr4mekWdPy.09kYUUrzFy68JsV l8bGy6f0j.VD69CAWQFyoYWlimQs2fzvX8lYXmf0G8052z8InSN.dtVmBixz UWQwHwJ2703ATDFAJu6hEJ5mVw4T3gDyYM5hFO7BsOePsCF2vQGXqayRuK52 _bwM1J2NPJMgSC1qsm7HaNIrpHXM_JxYXWlOdCdPUPW6QSVN15HP8_HcCasF CoBV40S0CdZdpu7XjHXyVw44vUuo30Tg- Received: from [172.14.16.72] by web121603.mail.ne1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 01 Oct 2013 08:53:42 PDT X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001,U3RldmUsCkEgcmVtb3ZhYmxlIHRpcCBpcyBncmVhdC7CoCBXZSBjYW4gbWFrZSBhbm90aGVyIG9uZSBqdXN0IGZvciB0ZXN0aW5nLgpJdCBpcyBiZXN0IHRvIHdhaXQgZm9yIHRoZSBhdXRvcGlsb3QuwqDCoEl0IGlzIG5lZWRlZCB0byBoYW5kbGUgcm9sbCBkdXJpbmcgbWFueSBvZiB0aGUgc3RhdGljIGFuZCBkeW5hbWljIHN0YWJpbGl0eSBtYW5ldXZlcnMuwqAgVGhlIGF1dG9waWxvdCBjYW4gdHJ1bHkgY29tbWFuZCBvbmUgYXhpcyB3aXRob3V0IGluYWR2ZXJ0ZW50bHkgYWZmZWN0aW5nIHRoZSBvdGhlci4BMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.160.587 References: X-Original-Message-ID: <1380642822.15472.YahooMailNeo@web121603.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> X-Original-Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2013 08:53:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Chris Zavatson Reply-To: Chris Zavatson Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Fw: [LML] Re: Lancair 320/360 performance and stability X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-1682663710-562127705-1380642822=:15472" ---1682663710-562127705-1380642822=:15472 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Steve,=0AA removable tip is great.=A0 We can make another one just for test= ing.=0AIt is best to wait for the autopilot.=A0=A0It is needed to handle ro= ll during many of the static and dynamic stability maneuvers.=A0 The autopi= lot can truly command one axis without inadvertently affecting the other.= =0A=A0=0AChris Zavatson=0AN91CZ=0A360std=0Ahttp://www.n91cz.net/=0A =0A=0A_= _______________________________=0A From: steve =0ATo: lml@l= ancaironline.net =0ASent: Tuesday, October 1, 2013 7:34 AM=0ASubject: [LML]= Re: Fw: [LML] Re: Lancair 320/360 performance and stability=0A =0A=0A=0AC= hris,=A0 I would be happy to volunteermy 360.=A0 The mounting of the probe = would be a hurtle as I don't have the lens on the tip. The tip is removable= =A0 but not to keen on drilling a hole in it. maybe we could find a stray= =A0 tip or some other method of mounting. =0A=0AAs Grayhawk=A0 mentioned=A0= an auto pilot would help greatly along with changing the GPS to Km. I have= a Garmin 696 but no Auto pilot. That is on order in the coming months. Do = you think it should wait until I have an auto pilot? =0A=0AI will test the = -10 degree reflex ASAP and report back. =0A=0ASteve Alderman=A0 N25SA=A0=A0= 360 =0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: Sky2high = =0ATo: lml =0ASent: Mon, Sep 30, 2013 9:32 pm=0ASubj= ect: [LML] Re: Fw: [LML] Re: Lancair 320/360 performance and stability=0A= =0A=0AAnother way to measure fine speed changes is to set your WAAS GPS to = set =0Ayour distance units to=A0Km and, whilst under AP=A0altitude hold con= trol =0Ain level flight, make the flap change with any trim adjustment as r= equired and =0Await the 3 minutes to record the new speed.=A0 KM/hr is=A0mo= re than twice =0Aas fine as Kts. =0A=0AGrayhawk=A0 =0A=0AIn a message dated= 9/30/2013 5:57:24 P.M. Central Daylight Time, chris_zavatson@yahoo.com wri= tes: =0A=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>Steve, =0A>For small deflections you can use: sin(3= deg) * (flap chord) =0A>My flap chord at the root is 10.75", so 0.56"=A0 = - Another option is a digital level. =0A>=A0 =0A>The faired-in position is = pretty accurate at -7 degrees.=A0 When I calibrated my flap position trans= ducer, I had to make a full size template to locate 0 degrees.=A0 The fuse= lage fairing ended up right at -7.0, so it is a good reference. =0A>=A0 = =0A>When measuring speeds greater that 120 KIAS, I recorded each point for= at least three minutes.=A0I found that it took about 2 minutes to reach a= truly stabilized speed after a power or flap setting change.=A0=A0 The sp= eed decay is so slow it isn't really detectable by starring at the=A0airsp= eed indicator.=A0 Imagine trying to see average needle movement of 1kt/min= .=A0 Fortunately the two minute settling time is very consistent. =0A>=A0 = =0A>I think it would be quite valuable and educational=A0to repeat the sam= e series to of tests on a small tail 320/360.=A0 I=A0would be more than ha= ppy=A0to go over all the details with anyone interested in volunteering.= =A0 I think the biggest hurdle is mounting the alpha/beta probe.=A0 I was = able to grab onto the mounting provisions for my wingtip lens with=A0a fib= erglass=A0'lens' to mount the probe.=A0 The internal transducers are relati= vely simple. =0A>=A0 =0A>Chris Zavatson =0A>N91CZ =0A>360std =0A>http://ww= w.n91cz.net/ =0A>=0A> =0A>=0A>________________________________=0A> From: st= eve =0A>To: lml@lancaironline.net =0A>Sent: Monday, Septem= ber 30, 2013 5:59 AM=0A>Subject: [LML] Re: Lancair 320/360 performance and= stability=0A> =0A>=0A>=0A>Chris,=A0=A0 I'm going to re-just my flaps to -1= 0 reflex and see what happens. What would you guess the measurement is up = from the trailing edge of the faired in=A0position? =0A>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Thanks for all your work. Do you need a small tail 360 for= more testing? =0A>=0A>Steve Alderman=A0=A0 N25SA =0A>-----Original Mess= age-----=0A>From: Chris Zavatson =0A>To: =0A lml= =0A>Sent: Sun, Sep 29, 2013 8:54 =0A pm=0A>Subject= : [LML] Re: Lancair 320/360 performance and stability=0A>=0A>=0A>So I happe= ned to be looking for something unrelated in the FB manual and came across= this on page 10-24: =0A>=0A>"Lancair flaps are full electric actuated.=A0 = They are designed to run from +45 down to -10 up (reflex).=A0 Note that th= e 'faired in position' for flaps is actually a -7 deg reflex position. ...= .." =0A>=0A>My standard build manual is in storage so I could not compare.= =A0 It would appear the intent was to be able to go to -10 degrees after a= ll. =0A>=0A>Chris Zavatson =0A>N91CZ =0A>360std =0A>http://www.n91cz.net/ = =0A>=0A> =0A>=0A>________________________________=0A> From: Christian Meie= r =0A>To: lml@lancaironline.net =0A>Sent: Tuesday, Septem= ber 24, 2013 3:19 AM=0A>Subject: [LML] Re: Lancair 320/360 performance an= d stability=0A> =0A>=0A>=0A>Chris, =0A>=0A> =0A>today I made a picture duri= ng Cruise with Autopilot at 7500ft with following configuration: =0A>770 k= g =A040l in header, 20l in each wing (80l total), 75kg and 83kg for pilot = and co. =0A>Flap was on 7=B0 reflex =A0CG 26,20" =A0 =0A>My design CG is 22= ,8 =A0- =A030,3 from firewall back, =A0horizontal was installed - 0.6=B0 = =0A>=0A> =0A>So it looks like if I would add more reflex than 7=B0, I would= need more down elevator. =0A>So the gain with the higher reflex would be = lost with the down elevator.... =0A>=0A> =0A>Christian=0A> =0A>=A0 =0A>>= =0A>>=A0 =0A>>=0A>>=A0 =0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>> =0A> =0A>=0A> = =0A>=0A> =0A>=0A> =0A>=0A>--=0A>For =0A archives and unsub http:/= /mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html=0A> ---1682663710-562127705-1380642822=:15472 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Steve,
A removable tip is great.  We can make another one just for t= esting.
It is best to wait for the autopilot. &= nbsp;It is needed to handle roll during many of the static and dynamic stab= ility maneuvers.  The autopilot can truly command one axis without ina= dvertently affecting the other.
 
<= div>Chris Zavatson
N91CZ
360std
From: steve <n5276j@aol.com>
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2013 7:34 AM
Subject: [LML] Re: Fw: [LML] Re: Lanca= ir 320/360 performance and stability

=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
Chris,  I would be happy to vo= lunteer my 360.  The mount= ing of the probe would be a hurtle as I don't have the lens on the tip. The= tip is removable  but not to keen on drilling a hole in it. maybe we = could find a stray  tip or some other method of mounting.
=0A=0A
 
=0A=0A
As Grayhawk  mentioned  = an auto pilot would help greatly along with changing the GPS to Km. I have = a Garmin 696 but no Auto pilot. That is on order in the coming months. Do y= ou think it should wait until I have an auto pilot?
=0A=0A
 <= /div>=0A=0A
I will test the -10 degree reflex ASAP and report back.=0A=0A
 
=0A=0A
Steve Alderman  N25SA   = 360
=0A=0A
=0A
=0A
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= =0A=0A
=0A=0A
-----Original Message-----
=0AFrom: Sky2high &l= t;Sky2high@aol.com>
=0ATo: lml <lml@lancaironline.net>
=0ASe= nt: Mon, Sep 30, 2013 9:32 pm
=0ASubject: [LML] Re: Fw: [LML] Re: Lancai= r 320/360 performance and stability
=0A
=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A
=0A=0A=0A=0A= =0A=0A
=0A=0A
Another way to measure fine speed changes is t= o set your WAAS GPS to set =0Ayour distance units to Km and, whilst un= der AP altitude hold control =0Ain level flight, make the flap change = with any trim adjustment as required and =0Await the 3 minutes to record th= e new speed.  KM/hr is more than twice =0Aas fine as Kts.
= =0A=0A=0A
 
=0A=0A=0A
Grayhawk 
=0A=0A=0A
&= nbsp;
=0A=0A=0A
=0A=0A
In a message dated 9/30/2013 5:57:24 P.= M. Central Daylight Time, =0Achris_zavatson@yahoo.com writes:
=0A=0A
=0A =0A
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=0A=0A = =0A
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=0A =0A
Steve,
=0A=0A =0A
For small deflections you can use: sin(3 deg)= * (flap =0A chord)
=0A=0A =0A
My flap chord at the= root is 10.75", so 0.56"  - =0A Another option is a dig= ital level.
=0A=0A =0A
 
=0A=0A = =0A
The faired-in position is pretty accurate at -7 degrees. = ; When =0A I calibrated my flap position transducer, I had to make a full = size template =0A to locate 0 degrees.  The fuselage fairing ended up= right at -7.0, so it =0A is a good reference.
=0A=0A =0A 
=0A=0A =0A
When measuring speeds great= er that 120 KIAS, I recorded each point =0A for at least three minutes.&nb= sp;I found that it took about 2 minutes to reach =0A a truly stabilized sp= eed after a power or flap setting change.   The =0A speed decay = is so slow it isn't really detectable by starring at =0A the airspeed= indicator.  Imagine trying to see average needle =0A movement of 1kt= /min.  Fortunately the two minute settling time is very =0A consisten= t.
=0A=0A =0A
 
=0A=0A =0A
I think it would be quite valuable and educational to repeat =0A t= he same series to of tests on a small tail 320/360.  I would be = =0A more than happy to go over all the details with anyone interested= in =0A volunteering.  I think the biggest hurdle is mounting the alp= ha/beta =0A probe.  I was able to grab onto the mounting provisions f= or my wingtip =0A lens with a fiberglass 'lens' to mount the pro= be.  The internal transdu= cers are relatively =0A simple.
=0A=0A =0A
&= nbsp;
=0A=0A =0A
Chris Zavatson
=0A=0A =0AN91CZ
=0A=0A =0A
360std
=0A=0A = =0A
http://www.n91cz.net/
=0A=0A =0A

=0A=0A=0A =0A
=0A =0A
=0A =0A
=0A =0A
=0AF= rom: steve =0A <n5276j@aol.com>
=0ATo: =0A lml@lancaironline.net
=0A<= span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sent: =0A Monday, September 3= 0, 2013 5:59 AM
=0ASubject:= [LML] Re: Lancair 320/360 =0A performance and stability
=0A=
=0A=0A =0A

=0A=0A = =0A
=0A =0A
Chris,   I'm going to re-j= ust my flaps to -10 reflex and see =0A what happens. What would you guess = the measurement is up from the trailing =0A edge of the faired in pos= ition?
=0A=0A =0A
        = ;    Thanks =0A for all your work. Do you need a small tail= 360 for more testing?
=0A=0A =0A
 
=0A=0A =0A
Ste= ve Alderman   N25SA
=0A=0A =0A
=0A=0A =0A
=0A=0A =0A
-----Original =0A Message-----
=0AFrom: Chris Zavatson= <chris_zavatson@yahoo.c= om>
=0ATo: =0A lml <lml@lancaironline.net>
=0ASent: Sun, Sep 29, 2013 8:54 =0A pm=0ASubject: [LML] Re: Lancair 320/360 performance and stability
=0A=0A=0A =0A
=0A =0A
=0A =0A=0A =0A
= So I happened to be looking for something unrelated in the FB manual and = =0A came across this on page 10-24:
=0A=0A =0A
 
=0A= =0A =0A
"Lancair flaps are full electric actuated.  They are desi= gned to run =0A from +45 down to -10 up (reflex).  Note that the 'fai= red in position' for =0A flaps is actually a -7 deg reflex position. .....= "
=0A=0A =0A
 
=0A=0A =0A
My standard build manual= is in storage so I could not compare.  It =0A would appear the inten= t was to be able to go to -10 degrees after all.
=0A=0A =0A
 = ;
=0A=0A =0A
Chris Zavatson
=0A=0A =0A
N91CZ
=0A= =0A =0A
360std
=0A=0A =0A=0A=0A =0A
=0A=0A =0A

=0A
=0A=0A =0A
=0A =0A
=0A =0A=
=0A =0A
=0A<= span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">From: =0A Christian Meier <= ;lancair@= meier.cc>
=0ATo:= lml@lancaironline.net
=0ASent: Tuesday, September 24, 2013 3:19 =0A AM
=0ASubject: [LML] Re: Lancair =0A 32= 0/360 performance and stability
=0A
=0A=0A =0A

=0A=0A =0A
=0A= =0A
=0A =0A
Chris,
=0A=0A =0A

=0A
=0A=0A =0A=
today I made a picture during Cruise with Autopilot at 7500ft with =0A= following configuration:
=0A=0A =0A
770 kg  40l in header,= 20l in each wing (80l total), 75kg and 83kg =0A for pilot and co.
= =0A=0A =0A
Flap was on 7=B0 reflex  CG 26,20"  
=0A=0A = =0A
My design CG is 22,8  -  30,3 from firewall back, =0A &= nbsp;horizontal was installed - 0.6=B0
=0A=0A =0A

=0A
= =0A=0A =0A
So it looks like if I would add more reflex than 7=B0, I wo= uld need more =0A down elevator.
=0A=0A =0A
So the gain with the= higher reflex would be lost with the down =0A elevator.... =0A =0A
<= br>=0A
=0A=0A =0A
Christian
=0A
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=0A
=0A =0A
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=0A 
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=0A=0A =0A<= div> 
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=0A
=0A--
=0AFor =0A archives and unsub = =0A http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/L= ist.html
=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0A=0A= =0A=0A
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