X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2013 10:34:45 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from omr-d09.mx.aol.com ([205.188.108.133] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.7) with ESMTPS id 6497650 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 01 Oct 2013 09:30:48 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.188.108.133; envelope-from=n5276j@aol.com Received: from mtaomg-db03.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-db03.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.51.201]) by omr-d09.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id E746F700000A1 for ; Tue, 1 Oct 2013 09:30:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from core-mla002c.r1000.mail.aol.com (core-mla002.r1000.mail.aol.com [172.29.186.80]) by mtaomg-db03.r1000.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id B4878E00008C for ; Tue, 1 Oct 2013 09:30:12 -0400 (EDT) References: X-Original-To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Fw: [LML] Re: Lancair 320/360 performance and stability In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: steve X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8D08CC17DA5070A_1680_B53C0_webmail-vm012.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 38079-STANDARD Received: from 70.193.200.10 by webmail-vm012.sysops.aol.com (64.12.252.127) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Tue, 01 Oct 2013 09:30:12 -0400 X-Original-Message-Id: <8D08CC17D945D6A-1680-364FE@webmail-vm012.sysops.aol.com> X-Originating-IP: [70.193.200.10] X-Original-Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2013 09:30:12 -0400 (EDT) x-aol-global-disposition: G x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d33c9524ace644302 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ----------MB_8D08CC17DA5070A_1680_B53C0_webmail-vm012.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Chris, I would be happy to volunteer my 360. The mounting of the probe wo= uld be a hurtle as I don't have the lens on the tip. The tip is removable = but not to keen on drilling a hole in it. maybe we could find a stray tip = or some other method of mounting. =20 As Grayhawk mentioned an auto pilot would help greatly along with changin= g the GPS to Km. I have a Garmin 696 but no Auto pilot. That is on order in= the coming months. Do you think it should wait until I have an auto pilot? =20 I will test the -10 degree reflex ASAP and report back. =20 Steve Alderman N25SA 360 -----Original Message----- From: Sky2high To: lml Sent: Mon, Sep 30, 2013 9:32 pm Subject: [LML] Re: Fw: [LML] Re: Lancair 320/360 performance and stability Another way to measure fine speed changes is to set your WAAS GPS to set yo= ur distance units to Km and, whilst under AP altitude hold control in level= flight, make the flap change with any trim adjustment as required and wait= the 3 minutes to record the new speed. KM/hr is more than twice as fine a= s Kts. =20 Grayhawk=20 =20 In a message dated 9/30/2013 5:57:24 P.M. Central Daylight Time, chris_zava= tson@yahoo.com writes: =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 Steve, =20 For small deflections you can use: sin(3 deg) * (flap chord) =20 My flap chord at the root is 10.75", so 0.56" - Another option is a digi= tal level. =20 =20 =20 The faired-in position is pretty accurate at -7 degrees. When I calibrat= ed my flap position transducer, I had to make a full size template to loc= ate 0 degrees. The fuselage fairing ended up right at -7.0, so it is a g= ood reference. =20 =20 =20 When measuring speeds greater that 120 KIAS, I recorded each point for at= least three minutes. I found that it took about 2 minutes to reach a tru= ly stabilized speed after a power or flap setting change. The speed dec= ay is so slow it isn't really detectable by starring at the airspeed indi= cator. Imagine trying to see average needle movement of 1kt/min. Fortun= ately the two minute settling time is very consistent. =20 =20 =20 I think it would be quite valuable and educational to repeat the same ser= ies to of tests on a small tail 320/360. I would be more than happy to g= o over all the details with anyone interested in volunteering. I think t= he biggest hurdle is mounting the alpha/beta probe. I was able to grab o= nto the mounting provisions for my wingtip lens with a fiberglass 'lens' = to mount the probe. The internal transducers are relatively simple. =20 =20 =20 Chris Zavatson =20 N91CZ =20 360std =20 http://www.n91cz.net/ =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 From: steve To: lml@lancaironline.net=20 Sent: Monday, September 30, 2013 5:59 AM Subject: [LML] Re: Lancair 320/360 performance and stability =20 =20 =20 Chris, I'm going to re-just my flaps to -10 reflex and see what happens= . What would you guess the measurement is up from the trailing edge of th= e faired in position? =20 Thanks for all your work. Do you need a small tail 360 for mo= re testing? =20 =20 =20 Steve Alderman N25SA =20 =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Chris Zavatson To: lml Sent: Sun, Sep 29, 2013 8:54 pm Subject: [LML] Re: Lancair 320/360 performance and stability =20 =20 =20 =20 So I happened to be looking for something unrelated in the FB manual and = came across this on page 10-24: =20 =20 =20 "Lancair flaps are full electric actuated. They are designed to run from= +45 down to -10 up (reflex). Note that the 'faired in position' for fla= ps is actually a -7 deg reflex position. ....." =20 =20 =20 My standard build manual is in storage so I could not compare. It would = appear the intent was to be able to go to -10 degrees after all. =20 =20 =20 Chris Zavatson =20 N91CZ =20 360std =20 http://www.n91cz.net/ =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 From: Christian Meier To: lml@lancaironline.net=20 Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2013 3:19 AM Subject: [LML] Re: Lancair 320/360 performance and stability =20 =20 =20 =20 Chris, =20 =20 today I made a picture during Cruise with Autopilot at 7500ft with follow= ing configuration: =20 770 kg 40l in header, 20l in each wing (80l total), 75kg and 83kg for pi= lot and co. =20 Flap was on 7=C2=B0 reflex CG 26,20" =20 =20 My design CG is 22,8 - 30,3 from firewall back, horizontal was install= ed - 0.6=C2=B0 =20 =20 So it looks like if I would add more reflex than 7=C2=B0, I would need more= down elevator. =20 So the gain with the higher reflex would be lost with the down elevator..= .. =20 =20 Christian =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 -- For archives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.= html ----------MB_8D08CC17DA5070A_1680_B53C0_webmail-vm012.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"
Chris,  I would be= happy to volunteer my 360.&nbs= p; The mounting of the probe would be a hurtle as I don't have the lens on = the tip. The tip is removable  but not to keen on drilling a hole in i= t. maybe we could find a stray  tip or some other method of mounting.<= /font>
 
As Grayhawk  mentioned  an auto pilot would help greatly alo= ng with changing the GPS to Km. I have a Garmin 696 but no Auto pilot. That= is on order in the coming months. Do you think it should wait until I have= an auto pilot?
 
I will test the -10 degree reflex ASAP and report back.
 
Steve Alderman  N25SA   360
-----Original Message-----
From: Sky2high <Sky2high@aol.com>
To: lml <lml@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Mon, Sep 30, 2013 9:32 pm
Subject: [LML] Re: Fw: [LML] Re: Lancair 320/360 performance and stability<= br>
Another way to measure fine speed changes is to set your WAAS GPS to s= et=20 your distance units to Km and, whilst under AP altitude hold cont= rol=20 in level flight, make the flap change with any trim adjustment as required = and=20 wait the 3 minutes to record the new speed.  KM/hr is more than t= wice=20 as fine as Kts.
 
Grayhawk 
 
In a message dated 9/30/2013 5:57:24 P.M. Central Daylight Time,=20 chris_zavatson@yahoo.com wr= ites:
=20
=20
 
=20
=20
=20

=20
=20
=20
=20
Steve,
=20
For small deflections you can use: sin(3 deg) * (flap=20 chord)
=20
My flap chord at the root is 10.75", so 0.56"  -=20 Another option is a digital level.
=20
 
=20
The faired-in position is pretty accurate at -7 degrees.  W= hen=20 I calibrated my flap position transducer, I had to make a full size templ= ate=20 to locate 0 degrees.  The fuselage fairing ended up right at -7.0, s= o it=20 is a good reference.
=20
 
=20
When measuring speeds greater that 120 KIAS, I recorded each poi= nt=20 for at least three minutes. I found that it took about 2 minutes to = reach=20 a truly stabilized speed after a power or flap setting change.  = ; The=20 speed decay is so slow it isn't really detectable by starring at=20 the airspeed indicator.  Imagine trying to see average needle= =20 movement of 1kt/min.  Fortunately the two minute settling time is ve= ry=20 consistent.
=20
 
=20
I think it would be quite valuable and educational to repea= t=20 the same series to of tests on a small tail 320/360.  I would b= e=20 more than happy to go over all the details with anyone interested in= =20 volunteering.  I think the biggest hurdle is mounting the alpha/beta= =20 probe.  I was able to grab onto the mounting provisions for my wingt= ip=20 lens with a fiberglass 'lens' to mount the probe.  The internal transducers are relative= ly=20 simple.
=20
 
=20
Chris Zavatson
=20
N91CZ
=20
360std
=20 =20

=20
=20
=20
=20
From:= steve=20 <n5276j@aol.com>
To:=20 lml@lancaironline.net
Sent:=20 Monday, September 30, 2013 5:59 AM
Subject: [LML] Re: Lancair= 320/360=20 performance and stability
=20

=20
=20
Chris,   I'm going to re-just my flaps to -10 reflex and see= =20 what happens. What would you guess the measurement is up from the trailin= g=20 edge of the faired in position?
=20
            Tha= nks=20 for all your work. Do you need a small tail 360 for more testing?
=20
 
=20
Steve Alderman   N25SA
=20
=20
=20
chris_= zavatson@yahoo.com>
To:=20 lml <lml@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sun, Sep 29, 2013 8:54=20 pm
Subject: [LML] Re: Lancair 320/360 performance and stability

=20
=20
=20
=20
So I happened to be looking for something unrelated in the FB manual a= nd=20 came across this on page 10-24:
=20
 
=20
"Lancair flaps are full electric actuated.  They are designed to = run=20 from +45 down to -10 up (reflex).  Note that the 'faired in position= ' for=20 flaps is actually a -7 deg reflex position. ....."
=20
 
=20
My standard build manual is in storage so I could not compare.  I= t=20 would appear the intent was to be able to go to -10 degrees after all. =20
 
=20
Chris Zavatson
=20
N91CZ
=20
360std
=20 =20
=20

=20
=20
=20
=20
From:= =20 Christian Meier <lancair@meier.cc>
To: = lml@lancaironline.net
Sent: Tuesday, September 2= 4, 2013 3:19=20 AM
Subject: [LML] Re: Lancair= =20 320/360 performance and stability
=20

=20
=20
=20
Chris,
=20

=20
today I made a picture during Cruise with Autopilot at 7500ft with=20 following configuration:
=20
770 kg  40l in header, 20l in each wing (80l total), 75kg and 83k= g=20 for pilot and co.
=20
Flap was on 7=C2=B0 reflex  CG 26,20"  
=20
My design CG is 22,8  -  30,3 from firewall back,=20  horizontal was installed - 0.6=C2=B0
=20

=20
So it looks like if I would add more reflex than 7=C2=B0, I would need= more=20 down elevator.
=20
So the gain with the higher reflex would be lost with the down=20 elevator....=20 =20

=20
Christian
=20
=20
=20
 
=20
=20

 
=20
=20
=20

 
=20
 
=20
=20
=20
=20
 
=20
 
 =20
=20
=20









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