X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 08:12:49 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from mail-yh0-f42.google.com ([209.85.213.42] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.7) with ESMTPS id 6482887 for lml@lancaironline.net; Thu, 19 Sep 2013 21:54:46 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.213.42; envelope-from=legacyl2k@gmail.com Received: by mail-yh0-f42.google.com with SMTP id z12so4637542yhz.29 for ; Thu, 19 Sep 2013 18:54:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.236.173.41 with SMTP id u29mr4009056yhl.72.1379642053673; Thu, 19 Sep 2013 18:54:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from [10.15.85.231] (mobile-166-147-102-034.mycingular.net. [166.147.102.34]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id u43sm14796818yhb.4.1969.12.31.16.00.00 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 19 Sep 2013 18:54:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Legacy down in Geraldton, Western Australia References: From: Mike's Gmail Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-CF99E517-30AF-4736-998E-B0D3AE8CF0F6 In-Reply-To: X-Original-Message-Id: <69F90A0B-6801-41B0-BBE7-F3F651541C21@gmail.com> X-Original-Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2013 20:53:46 -0500 X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (9B206) --Apple-Mail-CF99E517-30AF-4736-998E-B0D3AE8CF0F6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Good facts, not ! It was Sun & Fun in Florida, but you were close, not! Sent from my iPhone On Sep 19, 2013, at 8:22 PM, Gary Weeks wrote: > Many thanks Bill for sharing that first hand account of an unlatched canop= y. >=20 > My comment was a reflection of what I had been told or had read somewhere p= reviously (not from actual experience) and I am happy to be corrected, espec= ially from those who have been there and done that. >=20 > Yes we need to carefully check the canopy is latched before takeoff. Thank= s again. >=20 > Gary >=20 >=20 >=20 > Sent from my iPad >=20 > On 19/09/2013, at 11:41 PM, "Bill Bradburry" wr= ote: >=20 >> I am sorry, Gary, but I have to disagree with that third sentence. The L= egacy can NOT be flown safely with the canopy unlatched! If you take off wi= th the canopy unlatched, you MAY survive=E2=80=A6I did! You MAY not damage t= he plane=E2=80=A6I did! Several others have not survived. It is a harrowin= g experience! I now check the canopy latch several times before each takeof= f! >> =20 >> When the canopy is closed it takes a little extra force to move it up off= the canopy seal, then it is easier to raise and you have the gas struts hel= ping you. So at about 60 knots, the canopy will suddenly pop up and go all t= he way or nearly to the stops. This action blanks off the elevator and you l= ose pitch control. The canopy then is blown back down and you temporarily r= egain pitch control before it is sucked back up for another round. By the t= ime it is headed back up the second time, you had better have the power off a= nd using that short instance of pitch control to get the plane either on the= ground or close enough for a hard landing. If this happened at 100 feet or= so, flowers would be in order. >> =20 >> It is possible that you could unlatch the canopy at cruise speed and it w= ould only open a few inches, but when you tried to land, the lack of prop bl= ast would put you back into this regime. I don=E2=80=99t recommend trying a= ny of it. Latch the damn canopy! >> =20 >> Bill B >> =20 >> From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ga= ry Weeks >> Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2013 7:44 AM >> To: lml@lancaironline.net >> Subject: [LML] Re: Legacy down in Geraldton, Western Australia >> =20 >> Not quiet right Fred. >> =20 >> VH-ALP has the standard canopy hinged from the front. I am not certain if= it was or wasn't a training flight, but hear there was only one on board. >> =20 >> The aircraft can be flown safely with the canopy unlatched as it trails i= n the slip stream. It would however be very distracting and noisy. >> =20 >> If in fact it was an unlocked canopy that caused this accident it is not t= he first Legacy to be lost in that manner. Oshkosh about 3 years ago saw a s= imilar accident. >> =20 >> I hope Gerry recovers from the terrible burns he has received. >> =20 >> Gary Weeks >> =20 >>=20 >> On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 12:32 PM, Frederick Moreno wrote: >> A friend sent me the news report and just called after phoning contacts h= e knows at the Geraldton Airport which is about 200 miles north of Perth on t= he Coast. An imported US-built Legacy crashed shortly after take off, rolle= d on impact and burned. It was a training mission, first report is crew bad= ly injured. Airport personnel were very quickly at the crash site. >> =20 >> My friend learned in subsequent phone calls that while Legacy aircraft ha= ve the canopy hinged at the front, this one had the canopy hinged at the BAC= K (mistake number one). At about 200 feet it popped open, but did not break= off and so created huge drag and probably blanked the vertical stabilizer a= nd rudder. Pilot attempted to turn back to the runway (mistake number two).= Sink rate soared during the turn and the plane went down. >> =20 >> Two huge mistakes in a row. It beggars belief. >> =20 >> Fred Moreno >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 --Apple-Mail-CF99E517-30AF-4736-998E-B0D3AE8CF0F6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Good facts, not !

It was Sun & Fun in Florida, but you were close, not!
Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 19, 2013, at 8:22 PM, Gary We= eks <g.weeks550@gmail.com>= wrote:

Many thanks= Bill for sharing that first hand account of an unlatched canopy.
=
My comment was a reflection of what I had been told or had re= ad somewhere previously (not from actual experience) and I am happy to be co= rrected, especially from those who have been there and done that.
=
Yes we need to carefully check the canopy is latched before t= akeoff. Thanks again.

Gary



Sent from my iPad

On 19/09/2013, at 11:41 PM, "Bill B= radburry" <bbradburry@bellsou= th.net> wrote:

=

I am sorry, Gary, but I have to disagre= e with that third sentence.  The Legacy can NOT be flown safely with the canopy unlatched!  If you take off with the canopy unlatched, you MAY survive=E2=80=A6I did!  You MAY not damage the plane=E2=80=A6I did!&nbs= p; Several others have not survived.  It is a harrowing experience!  I now ch= eck the canopy latch several times before each takeoff!=

 

When the canopy is closed it takes a little extra force to move it up off the canopy seal, then it is easier to raise and you have the gas struts helping you.  So at about 60 knots, t= he canopy will suddenly pop up and go all the way or nearly to the stops. = This action blanks off the elevator and you lose pitch control.  The canopy then is blown back down and you temporarily regain pitch control before it i= s sucked back up for another round.  By the time it is headed back up the= second time, you had better have the power off and using that short instance= of pitch control to get the plane either on the ground or close enough for a ha= rd landing.  If this happened at 100 feet or so, flowers would be in order= .

 

It is possible that you could unlatch t= he canopy at cruise speed and it would only open a few inches, but when you tri= ed to land, the lack of prop blast would put you back into this regime.  I= don=E2=80=99t recommend trying any of it.  Latch the damn canopy!

 

Bill B

 

From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Gary Weeks
Sent: Thursday, September 19,= 2013 7:44 AM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: Legacy dow= n in Geraldton, Western Australia

 

Not quiet right Fred.

 

VH-ALP has the standard canopy hinged from the front. I am not certa= in if it was or wasn't a training flight, but hear there was only one on board.=

 

The aircraft can be flown safely with the canopy unlatched as it tra= ils in the slip stream. It would however be very distracting and noisy.

 

If in fact it was an unlocked canopy that caused this accident it is= not the first Legacy to be lost in that manner. Oshkosh about 3 years ago saw a simi= lar accident.

 

I hope Gerry recovers from the terrible burns he has received.<= /o:p>

 

Gary Weeks

 <= /font>

On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 12:32 PM, Frederick Moreno <frederickmoreno@bigpond.= com> wrote:

=

A friend sent me the news report and just called after phoning contacts he knows at the Geraldto= n Airport which is about 200 mile= s north of Perth on the Coast.  An imported US-built Legacy crashed shortly after take= off, rolled on impact and burned.  It was a training mission, first report is crew badly injured.  Airport personnel were very quickly at= the crash site.

 

My friend learned in subsequent phone calls that while Legacy aircraft have the canopy hinged at the front, this one had th= e canopy hinged at the BACK (mistake number one).  At about 200 feet it= popped open, but did not break off and so created huge drag and probably blanked the vertical stabilizer and rudder.  Pilot attempted to turn back to the runway (mistake number two).  Sink rate soared during the= turn and the plane went down.

 

Two huge mistakes in a row.  It beggars belief.=

 

Fred Moreno
=

 

=  

 

= --Apple-Mail-CF99E517-30AF-4736-998E-B0D3AE8CF0F6--