X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 10:09:03 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from mail-ea0-f171.google.com ([209.85.215.171] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.1) with ESMTPS id 5994812 for lml@lancaironline.net; Fri, 04 Jan 2013 08:20:24 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.215.171; envelope-from=abegaskins@gmail.com Received: by mail-ea0-f171.google.com with SMTP id n10so6633304eaa.30 for ; Fri, 04 Jan 2013 05:19:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.14.207.195 with SMTP id n43mr142141287eeo.38.1357305588462; Fri, 04 Jan 2013 05:19:48 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: abegaskins@gmail.com Received: by 10.223.89.11 with HTTP; Fri, 4 Jan 2013 05:19:27 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Abe Gaskins X-Original-Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 07:19:27 -0600 X-Google-Sender-Auth: S4d0NFXVsx9M2LJ4NEZEeqG-zhI X-Original-Message-ID: Subject: Re: [LML] Re: : stalls X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b34373273b4c104d276555c --047d7b34373273b4c104d276555c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Normally I am a lurker on this list, rarely do I contribute or comment. Couple of corrections and clarifications, and an additional opinion, with the intent to help--not opine incessantly , I've been flying my Legacy since 2007 and have about 270 hours in-type and have about 1500 total time (at the risk of redundancy -I'm not a high time pilot--hopefully a decent pilot). When the Legacy spins it will wind up like a top very quickly--I've seen that first hand. When we did out stall work six or so years ago, we had about 5000 feet of height AGL when we initiated our stall. I don't know how much sky we consumed in our multi-spin situation. It's my opinion that we made it out of the double-spin with my instructors skill and a spoon full of luck. The plane is a very responsive lawn dart. And that goes exponential in the case in a spin. Too much opposite rudder and the plane will initiate a secondary spin--like that which happened to us. So you have to "get the feel" for the correct amount of opposite rudder: too much and the plane will go into a secondary spin. If I had to snatch a probability statistic from thin air, I'd say a proficient pilot has about a 75% chance of "getting the feel" on the first spin recovery. Not a bad batting average if we are playing baseball, but I'd not take that number up at 5000 feet in a spirited Bronco like a Legacy. In a certified plane like a C172 or a experimental plane like a Yak 18T, I'd say the risk of death by practicing stalls and spins are nil, when skilled instruction is present. I would not say that is the case in the Legacy. So here's a rhetorical question: if the probably goes up to a statistically significant percentage that you will die if you practice spins in a Legacy, is it worth the risk? Back in WWII the US government trained over 100,000 pilots. At that time training was more like, go out and do it--we've got a war to fight. I guess the implicit message was: pilots are like Doritos--we can make more. Well, training techniques changed as a result of the plethora of casualties resulting from the "just do it" mentality. In reading over the contributions on this subject, I think the best advise is to get a feel for the stall speed by stalling just before touch down. Abe Gaskins MGM Industries *Direct line 615-265-2046* *Cell 615-642-2310 * Skype Name: abe.gaskins "Choose a job you love, and you will never have to work a day in your life."--*Confucius* "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education"--Mark Twain "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness"--Mark Twain On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 12:50 AM, Charles Brown wrote: > Abe, thanks for sharing, like many of our brethren on this site. Info > like that on behavior in off-nominal conditions is extremely valuable. > > I notice that neither the CAFE testers, nor the Lancair demo pilots, ever > intentionally stalled a Legacy (or, I assume, any other Lancair). Now I > see why. > > Humorous anecdote: The best lessons I ever learned were from instructors > who *intentionally* let me screw up -- to their everlasting credit, because > they were taking a certain amount of risk in doing so. In particular, my > primary instructor one day finally just stopped telling me to keep the ball > in the middle, and when I stalled the Cherokee it entered a spin which my > instructor immediately recovered (1/4 turn or so). After I stopped > shaking, I NEVER FORGOT TO KEEP THE BALL CENTERED AGAIN. : ) > > I have adopted the same technique (in certified training aircraft) with > students who just can't learn any other way, and it's highly effective. > > Charley > > On Jan 3, 2013, at 2:08 PM, Abe Gaskins wrote: > > My 0.02. I transitioned from a C-172 to a Legacy about 4 years ago. I > had enough sense to get some transition training and had enough sense to > realize my limitations. I had an instructor go up and do some stall work > with me. I initiated the stall. The plane stalled and I must have not had > the ball centered. (maybe I did--read the NOTE BELOW for a > possible scenario that could kill a few good fellows). If the ball is not > centered, my experience was very little warning to the stall and/or > spin--and when she stalled, she snapped violently into a spin (remember I > transitioned from a 172 so I was a low time pilot--no advanced training and > no military training). I immediately told the instructor: " you've got the > controls." > > He neutralized the aileron input and pushed forward to break out of the > spin. Upon doing so, the bird subsequently snapped more violently into an > opposite spin. My instructor was/is a very low-key, > non panicking personality. Upon entry into the second spin in the opposite > direction his only response during the second spin was: "OH SHIT!" From > which he initiated standard recovery techniques and he got us out of the > situation. I had no audible response, but let me tell you, my heart rate > spiked like scared field mouse. Years later I asked one of the learnered > pilots in the Lancair community how close we were to a very dire outcome > (I'm keeping names out of this email other than my own). He said:" only > thing I can say is, you were very close. Based upon Reynolds Numbers and > theory, the Legacy will not come out of a spin after 2 or 3 turns." Those > are his words not mine. I write these words with trepidation, because I do > not want to cause problems for myself nor the people who helped me in my > training. However, I do think that it is not advisable to make a blanket > statement that everyone should do stall training. And my purpose it to > help people make prudent decisions regarding their own training, and, hope > that my comments inch our community towards better safety and many fruitful > years of flying. > > *Years later* > In my case I have a partnership in a Russian Yak 18T. On my quest for a > $200 breakfast on Saturday mornings I do spins, loops, rolls, cuban eights, > immelmans...and more fun S&*T. I think I am a better pilot for getting > aerobatic experience. If your not current in aerobatic work (or proficient) > then I would not recommend doing stalls in the Legacy. I would recommend > getting some spin training in a more docile aircraft. And then if you want > to do some stall work, find someone in the Lancair community that would be > willing to help you out. I love my Legacy, but I have no intention of > stalling mine if I can help it. > > *NOTE BELOW* > If your are flying with a glass cockpit, and relying it > for situation awareness, the turn coordinator has to be calibrated. If it > is not calibrated then you might be skidding across the sky with "the ball > centered", which might be OK in cruise, but it certainly is not OK in > speeds close to a stall configuration. > > Abe Gaskins > MGM Industries > *Direct line 615-265-2046* > *Cell 615-642-2310 * Skype Name: abe.gaskins > "Choose a job you love, and you will never have to work a day in your > life."--*Confucius* > "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education"--Mark Twain > "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness"--Mark Twain > --047d7b34373273b4c104d276555c Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Normally I am a lurker on this list, rar= ely do I contribute or comment. =A0Couple of corrections and clarifications= , and an additional opinion, with the intent to help--not opine incessantly= , =A0I've been flying my Legacy since 2007 and have about 270 hours in= -type and have about 1500 total time (at the risk of=A0redundancy=A0-I'= m not a high time pilot--hopefully a decent pilot). =A0=A0
When the Legacy spins it will wind up like a top ve= ry quickly--I've seen that first hand. =A0 When we did out stall work s= ix or so years ago, we had about 5000 feet of height AGL when we initiated = our stall. =A0I don't know how much sky we consumed in our multi-spin s= ituation.=A0It'= s my opinion that we made it out of the double-spin with my instructors ski= ll and a spoon full of luck. =A0 The plane is a very responsive lawn dart. = And that goes exponential in the case in a spin. =A0Too much opposite rudde= r and the plane will initiate a secondary spin--like that which happened to= us. =A0 So you have to "get the feel" for the correct amount of = opposite rudder: too much and the plane will go into a secondary spin. =A0 = If I had to snatch a=A0pro= bability=A0statistic from = thin air, I'd say a proficient pilot has about a 75% chance of "ge= tting the feel" on the first spin recovery. =A0 Not a bad batting aver= age if we are playing baseball, but I'd not take that number up at 5000= feet in a spirited Bronco like a Legacy.=A0

In a certified plane like a C172 or a experimental = plane like a Yak 18T, I'd say the risk of death by practicing stalls an= d spins are nil, when skilled=A0instruction=A0is present. =A0I would not sa= y that is the case in the Legacy. So here's a rhetorical=A0question: = =A0if the probably goes up to a=A0statistically=A0significant=A0percentage = that you will die if you practice spins in a Legacy, is it worth the risk? = =A0=A0

Back in WWII the US gover= nment trained over 100,000 pilots. At that time training was more like, go = out and do it--we've got a war to fight. =A0I guess the implicit messag= e was: pilots are like Doritos--we can make more. =A0 Well, training techni= ques changed as a result of the plethora of=A0casualties=A0resulting from t= he "just do it" mentality.=A0

= In reading over the contributions on this subj= ect, I think the best advise is to get a feel for the stall speed by stalli= ng just before touch down. =A0 =A0=A0

Abe Gaskins
MGM Industries
Direct line <= a href=3D"tel:615-265-2046" value=3D"+16152652046" target=3D"_blank">615-26= 5-2046
Cell 615-642-2310 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Skype Name: abe.gaskins<= div> "Choose a= job you love, and you will never have to work a day in your life."--<= /span>Confucius=A0
"I h= ave never let my schooling interfere with my education"--Mark Twain=A0
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness&= quot;--Mark Twain


=A0


On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 12:50 AM, Charles= Brown <browncc1@verizon.net> wrote:
Abe, thanks for sharing, like many= of our brethren on this site. =A0Info like that on behavior in off-nominal= conditions is extremely valuable. =A0

I notice th= at neither the CAFE testers, nor the Lancair demo pilots, ever intentionall= y stalled a Legacy (or, I assume, any other Lancair). =A0Now I see why.

Humorous anecdote: =A0The best lessons I ever learned w= ere from instructors who *intentionally* let me screw up -- to their everla= sting credit, because they were taking a certain amount of risk in doing so= . =A0In particular, my primary instructor one day finally just stopped tell= ing me to keep the ball in the middle, and when I stalled the Cherokee it e= ntered a spin which my instructor immediately recovered (1/4 turn or so). = =A0 After I stopped shaking, I NEVER FORGOT TO KEEP THE BALL CENTERED AGAIN= . =A0: )

I have adopted the same technique (in certified trainin= g aircraft) with students who just can't learn any other way, and it= 9;s highly effective. =A0=A0

Charley

On Jan 3, 2013, at 2:08 PM, Abe Gaskins wrote:

My 0.02. =A0I transitioned from a C-172 to a = Legacy about 4 years ago. =A0I had enough sense to get some transition trai= ning and had enough sense to realize my limitations. =A0I had an instructor= go up and do some stall work with me. =A0I initiated the stall. =A0The pla= ne stalled and I must have not had the ball centered. =A0(maybe I did--read= the NOTE BELOW for a possible=A0scenario=A0that could kill a few good fell= ows). =A0If the ball is not centered, my experience was very little warning= to the stall and/or spin--and when she stalled, she snapped violently into= a spin (remember I transitioned from a 172 so I was a low time pilot--no a= dvanced training and no military training). =A0I immediately told the instr= uctor: " you've got the controls." =A0

He neutralized the aileron input and pushed forward= to break out of the spin. =A0Upon doing so, the bird subsequently snapped = more violently into an opposite spin. =A0My instructor was/is a very low-ke= y, non=A0panicking=A0personality. =A0Upon entry into the second spin in the= opposite direction his only response during the second spin was: "OH = SHIT!" =A0From which he initiated standard recovery techniques and he = got us out of the situation. I had no audible response, but let me tell you= , my heart rate spiked like scared field mouse. =A0Years later I asked one = of the learnered pilots in the Lancair community how close we were to a ver= y dire outcome (I'm keeping names out of this email other than my own).= He said:" only thing I can say is, you were very close. Based upon Re= ynolds Numbers and theory, the Legacy will not come out of a spin after 2 o= r 3 turns." =A0 Those are his words not mine. =A0I write these words w= ith=A0trepidation, because I do not want to cause problems for myself nor t= he people who helped me in my training. =A0However, I do think that it is n= ot advisable to make a blanket statement that everyone should do stall trai= ning. =A0And my purpose it to help people make prudent decisions regarding = their own training, and, hope that my comments inch our community towards b= etter safety and many fruitful years of flying. =A0=A0

Years later
In my case I have a partnership in a Russian Yak 18T. =A0On my quest for= a $200 breakfast on Saturday mornings I do spins, loops, rolls, cuban eigh= ts, immelmans...and more fun S&*T. =A0 I think I am a better pilot for = getting aerobatic experience. If your not current in aerobatic work (or pro= ficient) then I would not recommend doing stalls in the Legacy. =A0I would = recommend getting some spin training in a more docile aircraft. And then if= you want to do some stall work, find someone in the Lancair community that= would be willing to help you out. =A0I love my Legacy, but I have no inten= tion of stalling mine if I can help it.=A0

NOTE BELOW
If your are flying with a glass cockp= it, and relying it for=A0situation=A0awareness, the turn=A0coordinator=A0ha= s to be calibrated. =A0If it is not calibrated then you might be skidding a= cross the sky with "the ball centered", which might be OK in crui= se, but it certainly is not OK in speeds close to a stall configuration.=A0=

Abe Gaskins
MGM Industries
Direct line <= a href=3D"tel:615-265-2046" value=3D"+16152652046" target=3D"_blank">615-26= 5-2046
Cell 615-642-2310 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Skype Name: abe.gaskins<= div> "Choose a= job you love, and you will never have to work a day in your life."--<= /span>Confucius=A0
"I h= ave never let my schooling interfere with my education"--Mark Twain=A0
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness&= quot;--Mark Twain

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