X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2013 15:08:17 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from nm12.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com ([98.139.44.139] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.1) with ESMTPS id 5993641 for lml@lancaironline.net; Thu, 03 Jan 2013 13:26:08 -0500 Received-SPF: neutral receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.44.139; envelope-from=ralphlove@stanfordalumni.org Received: from [98.139.44.99] by nm12.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Jan 2013 18:25:33 -0000 Received: from [67.195.14.109] by tm4.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Jan 2013 18:25:32 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp106.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Jan 2013 18:25:32 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 783082.76507.bm@smtp106.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: C5QBUAEVM1leC1hbI9mWsKUrbU68MEaeUefCF8wKitMf1iE VkUGrVrl7NXIJz2kNPeJym1GMvuX5wPXOuaKidboY2svhH_31kAFP5hEM04I MGP0SaUwCokb7YTEETmGfxuVPL9SvF2k0VZDJ92w67DkIp8RfcbTn_G4wbSQ pU1cGOe6SlaP9yNxFg8bbWbWQbBAyjgM4tchOOFrl8XmP8VIsOlIYnV8B2DF 0V1Wic81.ohW0..pID46rxw3xd83PJfw24BNn8jkCni1qHU0_yfbiZ91vyRv hi13O8Ec7Q8ezolOnPU35MBIvIhA19dJVhpuh29zO5vaMHWgxHMSQ1GZRKZg aefoHnHSrXMjK4UMUsQts1a.SKCyfVVqmHaZIzO_Ooko2.dlYTIw0dAg8Kgl aPFczpHq3.3hcT_DXn5VsZzdol_G13EtZbU1dH.VHx1xJxLYispFigt0L56K 1izLiXSOCfjSpygj6kVKeFyO97mX46K8yvIlhPn5NQwJpiumqm5ZrQaN8ssn YPNZu8R4JPtM15zSzVuqCz7MAVYeXGVsrqgQ- X-Yahoo-SMTP: O0s9NnaswBCimploNHufwcJQi58B5NjMy.C2WAjfZjgmjJOd Received: from [10.0.1.5] (ralphlove@67.188.62.229 with plain) by smtp106.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 03 Jan 2013 10:25:32 -0800 PST Subject: Re: [LML] Re: stalls References: From: Ralph Love Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-C0EA6EED-12A3-45DB-85FB-0A4006547557 X-Mailer: iPad Mail (10A523) In-Reply-To: X-Original-Message-Id: X-Original-Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 10:25:32 -0800 X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) --Apple-Mail-C0EA6EED-12A3-45DB-85FB-0A4006547557 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you for your comments. This needed to be said by an expert On Jan 3, 2013, at 8:30 AM, Colyn Case wrote: > Bill,=20 >=20 > No you didn't get it. >=20 > You are on a public mailing list comprised of pilots with a wide range of e= xperience and skills and owners of airplanes with a wide range of CG's, wing= incidences, airfoil shapes closer or farther from spec. It is a statistic= al fact that the accident rate among these permutations of pilots and aircra= ft doing whatever operations they do is 300 times worse per operational hour= than airline operation. Notably solo pilots with limited make/model exper= ience fare much worse. >=20 > Just to highlight the variance in airframes, when Len Fox was testing my s= tall characteristics, he became so annoyed with the pre-disposition of the a= irplane to break to the right that he grabbed a 2' sanding block raked off t= he primer from my leading edge to fix it. Similarly, when Len was testing t= he factory specimen of the Columbia he had to bail out because it wouldn't r= ecover from a spin the way the prototype (built to the same specs) did. Th= at's how little a change affects flight behavior. =20 >=20 > You may be on high moral ground saying that pilots should be able to execu= te and recover from stalls in any aircraft they fly. However, unless you c= an accurately predict that every pilot on this list operating with whatever a= ircraft, however configured, with no prior experience doing so, will have a= safe outcome the first time performing this maneuver alone, then I would re= commend against provoking all of them to do so. >=20 > Looking at the Lancair safety situation, the number one thing that shows u= p is that pilots who get the full training syllabus are doing a lot better t= han those that don't. That is why I take issue with recommendations to exp= eriment on your own. By all means, be familiar with your airplane, but giv= e us a hand with the safety situation and get trained in this make/model. >=20 > Colyn > =20 > On Jan 3, 2013, at 10:16 AM, Bill Bradburry wrote: >=20 > No, I got it. I just don=E2=80=99t get all this talk about Lancairs being= deadly in a stall. It seems you are trying to scare Lancair drivers into f= oregoing stall training. That, in my opinion, will kill more people than le= arning to fly their planes. I understand the reason for no spins and if you= know how to recover your plane from an incipient stall, there should never b= e a reason to recover from a spin. > But flying a plane that you are afraid to, and have never, stalled is just= plane dumb! > =20 > From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Col= yn Case > Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2013 8:33 AM > To: lml@lancaironline.net > Subject: [LML] Re: stalls > =20 > I guess you didn't get my point... > =20 > On Jan 2, 2013, at 6:16 PM, Bill Bradburry wrote: >=20 >=20 > Because nobody wants to die alone?? > =20 > If you are not competent to practice stalls solo in your Lancair, you prob= ably shouldn=E2=80=99t be flying it solo. > =20 > =20 > From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Col= yn Case > Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2013 2:04 PM > To: lml@lancaironline.net > Subject: [LML] Re: stalls > =20 > aerodynamically, I don't know what a Lancair has in common with a Zlin. = One thing it doesn't have is excess control authority. I'm all in favor o= f stall recognition training but I wouldn't advocate everyone going out in t= heir Lancair's solo and doing it.... > =20 > On Jan 2, 2013, at 9:45 AM, Andres Katz wrote: > =20 > Why not? > If you never stall the airplane when it happens you won't be able to recog= nize what is doing and how to react. Learning what your airplane does when i= t stalls and recovering from it is essential to safe flight. In flying Acro w= e stall the airplane multiple times, at low altitude and in front of ungrate= ful critical sobs that will laugh at you when you screw up but will give you= good tips about recovering from it. Every airplane stalls differently, righ= t wing drop, left wing drop, bucking etc. learning what the airplane does pr= e stall is the most important. My ZLIN 50 is so nice it begins to buckle and= bitch at me and tells me what I need to do (lower the stick) before it kill= s me. I advise you to get a good instructor and go to 10,000 feet and spend t= he best 2 hrs of your life stalling your airplane and getting to know her. I= t's=20 > Ike making love to your wife and knowing when she is happy..... > Sorry about that but > My old savvy instructor when checking me out in single seat airplanes alwa= ys told me the same, go out to a safe altitude, stall the airplane, learn wh= en it does it look at the speed when it happens, add 10 knots and come and l= and, it has never failed to get me down safely ie yak55, Jungmeister, ZLIN, c= hipmunk etc. > My few cents worth of it. You will live longer. >=20 > Sent from my iPad >=20 > On Jan 2, 2013, at 7:15 AM, "David M. Powell CRFA" wr= ote: >=20 >> I have made the decision prior to purchasing to avoid stalls altogether i= n my 360. After reading the stall and stall spin accident information, I ju= st don't think it's worth the risk. On take-off, I stay in ground effect fo= r the half second it takes to make it into the green after wheels up; on lan= ding, I approach well above stall for my flap configuration, and let the spe= ed bleed off only a few feet above the threshold. During normal flight, I d= on't even get near a typical slow flight speed. Too many variables in a hom= e built airplane with no precise envelope, a header tank that is PROBABLY wh= ere I think it is, but could be off by 30 or 40 pounds if the gauge is stuck= ; possible extra wait in the tail area (water retention after heavy rain). >> =20 >> From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed= Gray >> Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2013 9:43 PM >> To: lml@lancaironline.net >> Subject: [LML] stalls >>=20 >> Colyn, As I said, AVOID STEEP TURNS IN THE PATTERN. If you are flying lo= w under the hood, I hope you have a well qualified safety pilot >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/5980 - Release Date: 12/23/12= >> Internal Virus Database is out of date. >>=20 >=20 > =20 > =20 >=20 --Apple-Mail-C0EA6EED-12A3-45DB-85FB-0A4006547557 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thank you for your comments. This need= ed to be said by an expert

On Jan 3, 2013, at 8:30 AM, Colyn Case <= ;colyncase@earthlink.net> w= rote:

Bill, 

=
No you didn't get it.

You are on a public mailing li= st comprised of pilots with a wide range of experience and skills and owners= of airplanes with a wide range of CG's, wing incidences, airfoil shapes clo= ser or farther from spec.   It is a statistical fact that the accident r= ate among these permutations of pilots and aircraft doing whatever operation= s they do is 300 times worse per operational hour than airline operation. &n= bsp; Notably solo pilots with limited make/model experience fare much worse.=

Just to highlight the variance in airframes, when L= en Fox was testing my stall characteristics, he became so annoyed with the p= re-disposition of the airplane to break to the right that he grabbed a 2' sa= nding block raked off the primer from my leading edge to fix it.   Simi= larly, when Len was testing the factory specimen of the Columbia he had to b= ail out because it wouldn't recover from a spin the way the prototype (built= to the same specs) did.   That's how little a change affects flight be= havior.   

You may be on high moral groun= d saying that pilots should be able to execute and recover from stalls in an= y aircraft they fly.   However, unless you can accurately predict that e= very pilot on this list operating with whatever aircraft, however configured= ,  with no prior experience doing so, will have a safe outcome the firs= t time performing this maneuver alone, then I would recommend against provok= ing all of them to do so.

Looking at the Lancair sa= fety situation, the number one thing that shows up is that pilots who get th= e full training syllabus are doing a lot better than those that don't.  = ; That is why I take issue with recommendations to experiment on your own. &= nbsp; By all means, be familiar with your airplane, but give us a hand with t= he safety situation and get trained in this make/model.

=
Colyn
  
On Jan 3, 2013, at 10:= 16 AM, Bill Bradburry wrote:

No, I got it.  I just don=E2=80=99= t get all this talk about Lancairs being deadly in a stall.  It seems you are= trying to scare Lancair drivers into foregoing stall training.  That, i= n my opinion, will kill more people than learning to fly their planes.  I= understand the reason for no spins and if you know how to recover your plane from an incipient stall, there should never be a reason to recover from a spin.=

But flying a plane that you are afraid t= o, and have never, stalled is just plane dumb!

 

From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Colyn Case
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2= 013 8:33 AM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: stalls

 

I guess you didn't get my point...

 

On Jan 2, 2013, at 6:16 PM, Bill Bradburry wrote:



Because nobody wants to die alone??

 <= /o:p>

If you are not competent to practice stalls solo in your Lancair, you probably shouldn=E2=80=99t be flying it sol= o.

 <= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] <= b>On Behalf Of Colyn Case
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2= 013 2:04 PM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: stalls

 

aerodynamically, I don't know what  a Lancair has in common with a Zlin.    On= e thing it doesn't have is excess control authority.   I'm all in favor o= f stall recognition training but I wouldn't advocate everyone going out in the= ir Lancair's solo and doing it....

 

On Jan 2, 2013, at 9:45 AM, Andres Katz wrote:

 

Why not?

If you never stall the airplane when it happens you won't be able to recognize what is doing and how to react. Learning what your airplane does when it sta= lls and recovering from it is essential to safe flight. In flying Acro we stall t= he airplane multiple times, at low altitude and in front of ungrateful critical= sobs that will laugh at you when you screw up but will give you good tips ab= out recovering from it. Every airplane stalls differently, right wing drop, left= wing drop, bucking etc. learning what the airplane does pre stall is the mos= t important. My ZLIN 50 is so nice it begins to buckle and bitch at me and tel= ls me what I need to do (lower the stick) before it kills me. I advise you to g= et a good instructor and go to 10,000 feet and spend the best 2 hrs of your lif= e stalling your airplane and getting to know her. It's =

Ike making love to your wife and knowing when she is happy.....

Sorry about that but

My old savvy instructor when checking me out in single seat airplanes always to= ld me the same, go out to a safe altitude, stall the airplane, learn when it do= es it look at the speed when it happens, add 10  knots and come and land, i= t has never failed to get me down safely ie yak55, Jungmeister, ZLIN, chipmunk etc= .

My few cents worth of it. You will live longer.

Sent from my iPad


On Jan 2, 2013, at 7:15 AM, "David M. Powell CRFA" <superdmp@sonic.net> wrote:

I have made the decision prior to purchasing to avoid stalls altogether in my 360.  After reading the sta= ll and stall spin accident information, I just don't think it's worth the risk.  On take-off, I stay in ground effect for the half second it take= s to make it into the green after wheels up; on landing, I approach well above= stall for my flap configuration, and let the speed bleed off only a few feet= above the threshold.  During normal flight, I don't even get near a typical slow flight speed.  Too many variables in a home built airplane= with no precise envelope, a header tank that is PROBABLY where I think i= t is, but could be off by 30 or 40 pounds if the gauge is stuck; possible extr= a wait in the tail area (water retention after heavy rain).=

 

From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] <= b>On Behalf Of Ed Gray
Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 20= 13 9:43 PM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] stalls<= /font>

Colyn, As I said, AVOID STEEP TURNS IN THE PATTERN.  If you are flying low und= er the hood, I hope you have a well qualified  safety pilot

= N= o virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/5980 - Release Date: 12/23/12 Internal Virus Database is out of date.

 

 


= --Apple-Mail-C0EA6EED-12A3-45DB-85FB-0A4006547557--