X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2013 15:08:17 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from mail1.btc-bci.com ([208.25.96.26] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.1) with ESMTPS id 5993649 for lml@lancaironline.net; Thu, 03 Jan 2013 13:31:03 -0500 Received-SPF: error receiver=logan.com; client-ip=208.25.96.26; envelope-from=dwills@glbelt.com Received: from GLB10 (SWM1-11.btc-bci.com [209.165.242.11]) by mail1.btc-bci.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r03IUShC008972 for ; Thu, 3 Jan 2013 13:30:28 -0500 From: "DW" X-Original-To: "'Lancair Mailing List'" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [LML] Re: stalls X-Original-Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 13:30:58 -0500 X-Original-Message-ID: <001501cde9e0$79c174c0$6d445e40$@glbelt.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0016_01CDE9B6.90EDB6B0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQIK3sHT7W0l2WpLnNYH7LwpqEXeVpe99YHg Content-Language: en-us This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01CDE9B6.90EDB6B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jeff, I wonder if there is an aerodynamic reason that contributes to the = recovery difficulty, such as rudder size, location, ETC. I have flown = many hours in an Extra 300 and that big rudder responds well. I think = that anyone flying a high performance experimental should have some = basic aerobatic stall and spin training in an aircraft designed for and = with a good instructor, after all you can stall in almost any = configuration unintentionally and should know how to recover. An example = can be a sudden wind shift or gust. Another example could be on climb = out, with power you have right rudder in to keep the ball centered, a = sudden strong wind gust from the rear creates a shear that stalls a wing = or both, the nose now drops and if power is not reduced if needed, and = or the rudder inputs are not changed if needed for the new attitude = keeping the ball centered, things could get ugly. Keeping the ball = centered is very important, even a little off in the wrong configuration = can get you into trouble =E2=80=9Cstep on the ball=E2=80=9D is what I = learned from the start. These are relatively light aircraft and they are = in the experimental category for a reason. Would it be possible as a = group that we can collectively come up with a list of the performance = habits of these aircraft from those of actual experience for others to = review the flight characteristic=E2=80=99s and compare notes?=20 =20 =20 Dwills 360 Builder=20 =20 From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = Jeff Edwards Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2013 11:31 AM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Re: stalls =20 No. I am saying what I said. Pilots should get the appropriate training, = fly responsibly, and do what is necessary to tame the stall = characteristics including installing stall strips , and AOA sensors. = Remember, loss of control accidents are the leading cause of GA = accidents. Just practicing stalls in an airplane ill prepared to do so = is not wise IMHO. Many pilots need a thorough review of basic = aerodynamics. If you want a good course of instruction on this take Rich = Stowell' upset recovery course. =20 Best regards, =20 Jeff On Jan 3, 2013, at 9:16 AM, "Bill Bradburry" = wrote: Then you are saying that those IV aircraft are death traps and should be = destroyed before they kill the people in them. It seems that Lancair = has a problem on their hands with a very bad design. =20 _____ =20 From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = vtailjeff@aol.com Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2013 9:05 AM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Re: stalls =20 Lobo does not encourage stall practice in IV series aircraft due the = number of fatal accidents associated with stall training and testing in = a IV series, including a number of test pilots and flight instructors. =20 Jeff Sent from my iPad On Jan 2, 2013, at 5:16 PM, "Bill Bradburry" = wrote: Because nobody wants to die alone?? =20 If you are not competent to practice stalls solo in your Lancair, you = probably shouldn=E2=80=99t be flying it solo. =20 =20 _____ =20 From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = Colyn Case Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2013 2:04 PM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Re: stalls =20 aerodynamically, I don't know what a Lancair has in common with a Zlin. = One thing it doesn't have is excess control authority. I'm all in = favor of stall recognition training but I wouldn't advocate everyone = going out in their Lancair's solo and doing it.... =20 On Jan 2, 2013, at 9:45 AM, Andres Katz wrote: =20 Why not? If you never stall the airplane when it happens you won't be able to = recognize what is doing and how to react. Learning what your airplane = does when it stalls and recovering from it is essential to safe flight. = In flying Acro we stall the airplane multiple times, at low altitude and = in front of ungrateful critical sobs that will laugh at you when you = screw up but will give you good tips about recovering from it. Every = airplane stalls differently, right wing drop, left wing drop, bucking = etc. learning what the airplane does pre stall is the most important. My = ZLIN 50 is so nice it begins to buckle and bitch at me and tells me what = I need to do (lower the stick) before it kills me. I advise you to get a = good instructor and go to 10,000 feet and spend the best 2 hrs of your = life stalling your airplane and getting to know her. It's=20 Ike making love to your wife and knowing when she is happy..... Sorry about that but My old savvy instructor when checking me out in single seat airplanes = always told me the same, go out to a safe altitude, stall the airplane, = learn when it does it look at the speed when it happens, add 10 knots = and come and land, it has never failed to get me down safely ie yak55, = Jungmeister, ZLIN, chipmunk etc. My few cents worth of it. You will live longer. Sent from my iPad On Jan 2, 2013, at 7:15 AM, "David M. Powell CRFA" = wrote: I have made the decision prior to purchasing to avoid stalls altogether = in my 360. After reading the stall and stall spin accident information, = I just don't think it's worth the risk. On take-off, I stay in ground = effect for the half second it takes to make it into the green after = wheels up; on landing, I approach well above stall for my flap = configuration, and let the speed bleed off only a few feet above the = threshold. During normal flight, I don't even get near a typical slow = flight speed. Too many variables in a home built airplane with no = precise envelope, a header tank that is PROBABLY where I think it is, = but could be off by 30 or 40 pounds if the gauge is stuck; possible = extra wait in the tail area (water retention after heavy rain). =20 _____ =20 From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = Ed Gray Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2013 9:43 PM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] stalls Colyn, As I said, AVOID STEEP TURNS IN THE PATTERN. If you are flying = low under the hood, I hope you have a well qualified safety pilot No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com =20 Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/5980 - Release Date: = 12/23/12 Internal Virus Database is out of date. =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01CDE9B6.90EDB6B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Jeff, I wonder if there = is an aerodynamic reason that contributes to the recovery difficulty, = such as rudder size, location, ETC. I have flown many hours in an Extra = 300 and that big rudder responds well. I think that anyone flying a high = performance experimental=C2=A0 should have some basic aerobatic stall = and spin training in an aircraft designed for and with a good = instructor, after all you can stall in almost any configuration = unintentionally and should know how to recover. An example can be a = sudden wind shift or gust. Another=C2=A0 example could be on climb out, = =C2=A0with power you have right rudder in to keep the ball centered, a = sudden strong wind gust from the rear creates a shear that stalls a wing = or both, the nose now drops and if power is not reduced if needed, = =C2=A0and or the rudder inputs are not =C2=A0changed if needed for the = new attitude keeping the ball centered, things could get ugly. Keeping = the ball centered is very important, even a little off in the wrong = configuration can get you into trouble =E2=80=9Cstep on the = ball=E2=80=9D is what I learned from the start. These are relatively = light aircraft and they are in the experimental category for a reason. = Would it be possible as a group that we can collectively come up with a = list of the =C2=A0performance habits of these aircraft from those of = actual experience for others to review the flight = characteristic=E2=80=99s and compare notes?

 

 

Dwills

360 Builder =

 

From:= = Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = Jeff Edwards
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2013 11:31 = AM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: = stalls

 

No. I = am saying what I said. Pilots should get the appropriate training, fly = responsibly, and do what is necessary to tame the stall characteristics = including installing stall strips , and AOA sensors. Remember, loss of = control accidents are the leading cause of GA accidents. Just practicing = stalls in an airplane ill prepared to do so is not wise IMHO. Many = pilots need a thorough review of basic aerodynamics. If you want a good = course of instruction on this take Rich Stowell' upset recovery = course.

 

Best regards,

 

Jeff


On Jan 3, 2013, at 9:16 AM, = "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry@bellsouth.net>= wrote:

Th= en you are saying that those IV aircraft are death traps and should be = destroyed before they kill the people in them.  It seems that = Lancair has a problem on their hands with a very bad = design.

&n= bsp;

From:= = Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of vtailjeff@aol.com
Sent: = Thursday, January 03, 2013 9:05 AM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sub= ject: [LML] Re: stalls

 

Lobo = does not encourage stall practice in IV series aircraft due the number = of fatal accidents associated with stall training and testing in a IV = series, including a number of test pilots and flight = instructors.

 

Jeff

Sent from my = iPad


On Jan 2, 2013, at 5:16 PM, = "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry@bellsouth.net>= wrote:

Be= cause nobody wants to die alone??

&n= bsp;

If= you are not competent to practice stalls solo in your Lancair, you = probably shouldn=E2=80=99t be flying it solo.

&n= bsp;

&n= bsp;

From:= = Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Colyn Case
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, = 2013 2:04 PM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sub= ject: [LML] Re: stalls

 

aerodynamically, I don't know what  a Lancair has = in common with a Zlin.    One thing it doesn't have is excess = control authority.   I'm all in favor of stall recognition training = but I wouldn't advocate everyone going out in their Lancair's solo and = doing it....

 

On = Jan 2, 2013, at 9:45 AM, Andres Katz wrote:

 

Why not?

If you never stall the airplane when it happens you = won't be able to recognize what is doing and how to react. Learning what = your airplane does when it stalls and recovering from it is essential to = safe flight. In flying Acro we stall the airplane multiple times, at low = altitude and in front of ungrateful critical sobs that will laugh at you = when you screw up but will give you good tips about recovering from it. = Every airplane stalls differently, right wing drop, left wing drop, = bucking etc. learning what the airplane does pre stall is the most = important. My ZLIN 50 is so nice it begins to buckle and bitch at me and = tells me what I need to do (lower the stick) before it kills me. I = advise you to get a good instructor and go to 10,000 feet and spend the = best 2 hrs of your life stalling your airplane and getting to know her. = It's 

Ike making love = to your wife and knowing when she is = happy.....

Sorry about = that but

My old savvy = instructor when checking me out in single seat airplanes always told me = the same, go out to a safe altitude, stall the airplane, learn when it = does it look at the speed when it happens, add 10  knots and come = and land, it has never failed to get me down safely ie yak55, = Jungmeister, ZLIN, chipmunk etc.

My few cents worth of it. You will live = longer.

Sent from my iPad


On Jan 2, 2013, at = 7:15 AM, "David M. Powell CRFA" <superdmp@sonic.net> = wrote:

I = have made the decision prior to purchasing to avoid stalls altogether in = my 360.  After reading the stall and stall spin accident = information, I just don't think it's worth the risk.  On take-off, = I stay in ground effect for the half second it takes to make it into the = green after wheels up; on landing, I approach well above stall for my = flap configuration, and let the speed bleed off only a few feet above = the threshold.  During normal flight, I don't even get near a = typical slow flight speed.  Too many variables in a home built = airplane with no precise envelope, a header tank that is PROBABLY = where I think it is, but could be off by 30 or 40 pounds if the gauge is = stuck; possible extra wait in the tail area (water retention after heavy = rain).

 

From:= = Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Ed Gray
Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2013 = 9:43 PM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sub= ject: [LML] stalls

Colyn, As I said, AVOID STEEP TURNS IN THE = PATTERN.  If you are flying low under the hood, I hope you have a = well qualified  safety pilot

No virus found = in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.2805 / = Virus Database: 2637/5980 - Release Date: 12/23/12
Internal Virus = Database is out of date.

 

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