X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2013 15:13:27 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from nm4-vm0.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([98.138.90.253] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.1) with ESMTPS id 5990296 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 01 Jan 2013 15:05:48 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.138.90.253; envelope-from=chris_zavatson@yahoo.com Received: from [98.138.90.51] by nm4.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jan 2013 20:05:14 -0000 Received: from [98.138.89.174] by tm4.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jan 2013 20:05:14 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1030.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jan 2013 20:05:14 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 740335.64253.bm@omp1030.mail.ne1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 41565 invoked by uid 60001); 1 Jan 2013 20:05:14 -0000 DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Rocket-MIMEInfo:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=d9u5MBxT3ATJLCQ5t6phNJ1qOzhWSvdMkZwLIqe9uxr2yHgpC+S8e1JjYZqSCPr7zlTSicV9ABKQQFIMx+LNv4vKJiXjF2miggj62w5qjaJ5O+axA5MfB4HZv7dogHYKNWuKRYcgJwJ+pkIPBRZV8Wl1RtTvmVZQORcBs2IcaVk=; X-YMail-OSG: TL.x6EUVM1knv8WYmZwfXJz2dYtaVc0rVR6D7MJxnZXUgLC UV5GuXYhucJL_1pMhSN98uMi1d5BRmUSUnb3Y8cE9kDcPHlV7dBlv9R8LKvT 8h7Nc8ImE9J9pdYJluKrx6DUZHPGwG1XsSSvLWb.ULhXJIA8zqedVrODcDoa y6DCHDVVWELeA_BhfrkggN5AVPFrqMBIZaBwyJI_4pAgctueGJ1vlz7ZbQIj sh4Y5jWMIqWlORni7dhSqEBHj7Dv9_XqI4ZXe_KKYmEk35jX2YRdNJT5I8h0 tkza2NRM9lJajbI9xfzpmXAQHaFsWamimCElymhtk5LJ9Sbqz3r.xfUer_04 uk9wFm7iXsDm0aSwH_UYmKQA..YYJEeMw0bjLhXuaILf.3QWypxqQmRD24Yn AF_TjhYeUmu5HVNBecOjpVttka7iAGddsE3OUlFnj1395Fh3O.1YGcE7DXTX w5Tfz0SH2i5HjvrnaL6hwmU.oOxLudxzAG6Y7F5acMZZ2VPVEw4SaTeuhAwf tfVzog0C0sAJbCrGULyUecFczn5lGhxFh29R9asnry_LU3GqEXK59G0nKCuC rQ8lRVsUXaWuAkEUmUlyjQxbDzc4HeyLKFgs.d_.BxzjPMq84kslSGAJxxCJ M99DdYamYSa.f_9WIgc5Av2B.Rc3oX1rKZ6Pn_elX0wglWQ_U3ZhQ6u6kyw- - Received: from [76.246.35.104] by web121601.mail.ne1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 01 Jan 2013 12:05:14 PST X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 001.001,Q2hyaXMsCllvdXIgZ3Vlc3MgYXMgdG8gdGhlIGludGVybWl0dGVudCBvcGVyYXRpb24gaXMgY29ycmVjdC7CoCAiQUEiIHN0eWxlIHB1bXBzIGRvIG5vdCBoYXZlIGEgYmFjayBwcmVzc3VyZSByZWxpZWYgY2lyY3VpdC7CoCBVbmZvcnR1bmF0ZWx5IHRoZXkgY2Fubm90IGJlIHR1cm5lZCBpbnRvIExCwqBlaXRoZXIuIApUbyBnZXQgdGhlICJBQSIgcHVtcCB0byByZXRyYWN0IHNtb290aGx5IHlvdSB3aWxsIG5lZWQgdG8gcnVuIHRoZSBoaWdoIHByZXNzdXJlIHNpZGUgYXQgYSBtdWNoIGhpZ2hlciBwcmVzc3UBMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.129.483 References: X-Original-Message-ID: <1357070714.15171.YahooMailNeo@web121601.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> X-Original-Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 12:05:14 -0800 (PST) From: Chris Zavatson Reply-To: Chris Zavatson Subject: Re: [LML] LNC2 Hydraulics -- very old pump X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-1977980688-1836178138-1357070714=:15171" ---1977980688-1836178138-1357070714=:15171 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chris,=0AYour guess as to the intermittent operation is correct.=C2=A0 "AA"= style pumps do not have a back pressure relief circuit.=C2=A0 Unfortunatel= y they cannot be turned into LB=C2=A0either. =0ATo get the "AA" pump to ret= ract smoothly you will need to run the high pressure side at a much higher = pressure:=C2=A0 High Side Operating Pressure + Low Side Relief Valve settin= g. ~ 1,200 + 900 =3D 2,100 psi.=C2=A0 Definitely not ideal and thus the swi= tch to the LB circuit.=0AAs you recorded, you will see a much higher curren= t than with the LB circuit since your pump is doing much more work througho= ut the entire retraction cycle.=C2=A0 =0AOnce you have pressure gauges inst= alled, you will see the LPRV (Low pressure relief valve) setting on the low= side gauge while retracting.=C2=A0 =0AThese settings are checked by forcin= g the pump on and letting it run up against the PRV.=C2=A0 The pressure rea= ding will remain constant once reaching the PRV setting.=0A=C2=A0=0AChris Z= avatson=0AN91CZ=0A360std=0Ahttp://www.n91cz.net/ =0A=0A____________________= ____________=0A From: Christopher Skelt =0ATo: lml@l= ancaironline.net =0ASent: Tuesday, January 1, 2013 11:30 AM=0ASubject: [LML= ] LNC2 Hydraulics -- very old pump=0A =0A=0AFolks, =0AI finally tested gea= r retraction on my 1990 320 FB.=C2=A0 Here's a symptom =0Athat may or may n= ot be normal. =0A=091. Gear Switch in down position.=C2=A0 Master Switch o= ff.=C2=A0 Dump valve open. =0A=092. Close the dump valve. =0A=093. Master = switch on.=C2=A0 Pump runs for a few seconds, pressuring the low pressure = side. =0A=094. Gear switch to up position.=C2=A0 Pump runs intermittently, = raising the gear in fits and starts.=C2=A0 Eventually gear is up and doors= are closed.=C2=A0 Pump stops and remains off=E2=80=94so no evidence of pr= essure loss.=C2=A0 =0A=095. Master switch off.=C2=A0 Leave gear switch in = up position.=C2=A0 Gear stays up. =0A=096. Open dump valve and gear comes = down smoothly and locks. =0A=097. Close dump valve. =0A=098. Master switch = on, and gear comes up continuously and steadily. =0A=099. Gear switch to do= wn, and gear comes down steadily. =0AI=E2=80=99m guessing the intermittent= operation in 4 results from the pump =0Acompeting with back pressure from = the low pressure side. =0A=0AThe pump is identified as 108AA19-AL-3VT with= a date stamp 10/89.=C2=A0 =0AIt=E2=80=99s the old model with a cylindrical= black metal reservoir.=C2=A0 bought the =0Akit in June 1990.=C2=A0 Compare= with 108AM19-CLB-3VT cited by Chris Zavatzson at =0Ahttp://www.n91cz.com/H= ydraulics/Lancair%20Hydraulics.pdf=C2=A0 =0A=0AIs intermittent retraction n= ormal without the benefit of the alternator =0Acharging for this variant of= pump?=C2=A0 Do we know if it is LL, LB, LD, or some =0Aother?=C2=A0 =0A= =0AThe battery is a fully charged Odyssey PC680.=C2=A0 The voltage with the= =0Apump operating smoothly (see 8 and 9 above) is 11.3 Volts at 41 Amps re= tracting =0Aand 31 Amps lowering. =0A=0AI have ordered pressure gauges for= the high and low circuits.=C2=A0 What =0Apressure should I look for on the= low side while retracting?=C2=A0 How much is =0Atoo much? =0A=0AThanks in= advance for ideas. =0A=0ARegards, Chris. ---1977980688-1836178138-1357070714=:15171 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Chris,
Your guess as to the intermittent operation is correct.  "AA"= style pumps do not have a back pressure relief circuit.  Unfortunatel= y they cannot be turned into LB either.
To get the "= AA" pump to retract smoothly you will need to run the high pressure side at= a much higher pressure:  High Side Operating Pressure + Low Side Reli= ef Valve setting. ~ 1,200 + 900 =3D 2,100 psi.  Definitely not ideal a= nd thus the switch to the LB circuit.
As you recorded, you will s= ee a much higher current than with the LB circuit since your pump is doing = much more work throughout the entire retraction cycle. 
Onc= e you have pressure gauges in= stalled, you will see the LPRV (Low pressure relief valve) setting on the low side gauge while retracting. 
These sett= ings are checked by forcing the pump on and letting it run up against the <= span id=3D"misspell-3" class=3D"mark">PRV.  The pressure readin= g will remain constant once reaching the PRV setting.
 
Chris Zavatson
N91CZ
360std
From: Christopher Skelt <cskelt@earthlink.net>
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sent: Tuesday, January 1, 2013 11:30 AM
<= span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Subject: [LML] LNC2 Hydraulics -- very old pump
=

=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
Folks,
=0A
I finally tested gear retraction on m= y 1990 320 FB.  Here's a= symptom =0Athat may or may not be normal.
=0A
    =0A
  1. Gear Switc= h in down position.  Master Switch off.  Dump valve =0A open. = =0A
  2. Close the dump valve. =0A
  3. Master switch on.  Pump runs f= or a few seconds, pressuring the low =0A pressure side. =0A
  4. Gear swit= ch to up position.  Pump runs intermittently, raising the =0A gear in= fits and starts.  Eventually gear is up and doors are =0A closed.&nb= sp; Pump stops and remains off=E2=80=94so no evidence of pressure =0A loss= .  =0A
  5. Master switch off.  Leave gear switch in up position.=   Gear =0A stays up. =0A
  6. Open dump valve and gear comes down smo= othly and locks. =0A
  7. Close dump valve. =0A
  8. Master switch on, and = gear comes up continuously and steadily. =0A
  9. Gear switch to down, and = gear comes down steadily.
=0A
I=E2=80=99m guessing the interm= ittent operation in 4 results from the pump =0Acompeting with back pressure= from the low pressure side.
=0A
 
=0A
The pump is = identified as 108AA19-AL-3VT with a date stamp 10/89.  =0AIt=E2=80=99s= the old model with a cylindrical black metal reservoir.  bought the = =0Akit in June 1990.  Compare with 108AM19-CLB-3VT cited by Chris Zavatzson at =0Ahttp://www.n91cz.com/Hydraulics/Lancair%20= Hydraulics.pdf 
=0A
 
=0A
Is intermittent retra= ction normal without the benefit of the alternator =0Acharging for this var= iant of pump?  Do we know if it is LL, LB, LD, or some =0Aother? 
=0A
 
= =0A
The battery is a fully charged Odyssey PC680.  The voltage wit= h the =0Apump operating smoothly (see 8 and 9 above) is 11.3 Volts at 41 Am= ps retracting =0Aand 31 Amps lowering.
=0A
 
=0A
I = have ordered pressure gauges= for the high and low circuits.  What =0Apressure should I look for on= the low side while retracting?  How much is =0Atoo much?
=0A 
=0A
Thanks in advance for ideas.
=0A
 =0A
Regards, Chris.
=0A
 
=0A
 
=0A


 
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