X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 13:07:26 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.67] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0) with ESMTP id 5972260 for lml@lancaironline.net; Fri, 28 Dec 2012 10:04:14 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.86.89.67; envelope-from=colyncase@earthlink.net DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=stBAtknYRmZPHBT9InmSY6MZXf6nG4CX6HQSIpGeyQ6SbFWHc1XpGy6JadBtkWQZ; h=Received:From:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:To:References:Message-Id:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [70.105.250.129] (helo=[192.168.1.24]) by elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1TobTF-00089p-0U for lml@lancaironline.net; Fri, 28 Dec 2012 10:03:37 -0500 From: Colyn Case Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-177-442694685 Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Seat Belt update Legacy X-Original-Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 10:03:36 -0500 In-Reply-To: X-Original-To: "Lancair Mailing List" References: X-Original-Message-Id: <10ACB29B-8CBC-4A6A-B6DA-69398AB3D870@earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) X-ELNK-Trace: 63d5d3452847f8b1d6dd28457998182d7e972de0d01da94058c818f2afc111ecf306e02047a4a4ca350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 70.105.250.129 --Apple-Mail-177-442694685 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Jeff, What's the record for occupants submarine-ing with a 3-point airbag = belt? Just curious. Colyn On Dec 28, 2012, at 7:37 AM, vtailjeff@aol.com wrote: I would strongly recommend airbag seatbelts. Jeff Sent from my iPad On Dec 27, 2012, at 8:34 PM, Paul Miller wrote: > Agreed. The Simpson instructions show the geometry for restraint = placement. The Legacy is for me because the straps are slightly above = shoulder height. Other aircraft here have placed a spacer above the = backrest to provide that level of protection. The primary point was = those 3-4 foot straps extending back into the fuselage have a 15% = extension at impact. That puts a person's head close to the panel in = some cases. > On 2012-12-27, at 6:26 PM, Sky2high@aol.com wrote: >=20 >> Gents, >> =20 >> The shoulder strap ends should not be mounted lower than one's = shoulders as this could cause a compression of the spine in an accident. >> =20 >> Grayhawk >> =20 >> In a message dated 12/27/2012 8:54:41 A.M. Central Standard Time, = sdfields68@att.net writes: >> Hello Paul, >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> I would like to know more about how you mounted the shoulder straps. = I am planning to do the same and don't need to re-invent what you've = already done. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> Stan Fields >>=20 >> L2KR/G # 201 >>=20 >> Austin >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf = Of Paul Miller >> Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2012 8:58 PM >> To: lml@lancaironline.net >> Subject: [LML] Seat Belt update Legacy >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> I made a safety and comfort upgrade with my Legacy recently and = installed 6-point Simpson belts. Here are the details and a few things = to consider based on input from safety expert Butch Stevens of Simpson = who supplied the new belts: >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> 1) I removed the inertial reels based on Butch's recommendation = because reels are not reliable in high-G impacts. I also shortened the = shoulder straps and bolted them behind the seats. Belts stretch 15% in = an accident so if you want maximum protection from panel impact, remove = the long straps from the roof and shorten them as much as possible. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> 2) These Simpson belts and hardware are rated to 14,000 pounds. = Testing shows that most 3,000 lb rated belts don't make that figure. = Butch's Citabria belts only tested to 1800lb before failure. Original = hardware on our TBM 700s failed at 600lb before we complained and an AD = came out on the French hardware. Butch's tests on Hooker failed at less = than 3,000lb. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> 3) Belts lose 50% of their strength in two years from sunlight = exposure. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> 4) High G pullups and crashes without the 6-points (crotch straps) = often find the pilot squeezed down near the rudder pedals because they = slide underneath the lap belts. You must have the 6 points to avoid = this problem. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> I installed the crotch straps to the same mounting point with the lap = belts. I don't believe the mounting location of the lap belt on the = center console will hold 3,000 lbs from what I saw on the Legacy so I = will have to review that at a later date. I believe the hard point on = the seat back and the fuselage will probably hold. I was thinking maybe = of bonding an attach point to the rear spar but I have no data yet on = how that might work for the crotch straps. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> The incremental cost was low for me. I sold the old hardware, TSO'd = belts and reels on ebay for $250 to a Alaska pilot. This setup from = Simpson is available for $299 which is inexpensive for the high quality = and ability to handle higher loads and shocks. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> =46rom a comfort perspective, many of my flights are cross country = and the inertial reels always had me bouncing around the cockpit going = through Montana in the afternoon or in Texas during the summer. With = these hard points, I cinch down and become one with the airplane. = Control is better in turbulence and I feel liked I'm locked in a little = tighter. The setup is comfortable during long flights. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> Contact me if you'd like more info on how I attached these shoulder = straps or if you have data on mounting the other points. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> Paul >>=20 >> Spruce Creek >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> =20 >=20 --Apple-Mail-177-442694685 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii vtailjeff@aol.com wrote:
I = would strongly recommend airbag = seatbelts.

Jeff

Sent from my = iPad

On Dec 27, 2012, at 8:34 PM, Paul Miller <pjdmiller@gmail.com> = wrote:

Agreed. =  The Simpson instructions show the geometry for restraint = placement.  The Legacy is for me because the straps are slightly = above shoulder height.  Other aircraft here have placed a spacer = above the backrest to provide that level of protection.  The = primary point was those 3-4 foot straps extending back into the fuselage = have a 15% extension at impact.   That puts a person's head close = to the panel in some cases.
On 2012-12-27, at 6:26 PM, Sky2high@aol.com wrote:

Gents,
 
The shoulder strap ends should not be mounted lower than one's=20= shoulders as this could cause a compression of the spine in an = accident.
 
Grayhawk
 
In a message dated 12/27/2012 8:54:41 A.M. Central Standard Time,=20= sdfields68@att.net = writes:

Hello=20 Paul,

 

I=20 would like to know more about how you mounted the shoulder straps. I = am=20 planning to do the same and don't need to re-invent what you've = already=20 done.

 

Stan=20 Fields

L2KR/G=20 # 201

Austin

 

From: Lancair = Mailing=20 List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf = Of Paul=20 Miller
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2012 8:58 = PM
To:=20 lml@lancaironline.net
Subj= ect: [LML] Seat Belt update=20 Legacy

 

I made a = safety and comfort upgrade with my Legacy recently=20 and installed 6-point Simpson belts.  Here are the details and a = few=20 things to consider based on input from safety expert Butch Stevens of = Simpson=20 who supplied the new belts:

 

1) I removed the inertial reels based on = Butch's=20 recommendation because reels are not reliable in high-G impacts. =   I also=20 shortened the shoulder straps and bolted them behind the seats.   = Belts=20 stretch 15% in an accident so if you want maximum protection from = panel=20 impact, remove the long straps from the roof and shorten them as much = as=20 possible.

 

2) These Simpson belts and hardware are = rated to 14,000=20 pounds.   Testing shows that most 3,000 lb rated belts don't make = that=20 figure.   Butch's Citabria belts only tested to 1800lb before = failure.=20   Original hardware on our TBM 700s failed at 600lb before we = complained=20 and an AD came out on the French hardware.  Butch's tests on = Hooker=20 failed at less than 3,000lb.

 

3) Belts lose 50% of their strength in two = years from=20 sunlight exposure.

 

4) High G pullups and crashes without the = 6-points (crotch=20 straps) often find the pilot squeezed down near the rudder pedals = because they=20 slide underneath the lap belts.  You must have the 6 points to = avoid this=20 problem.

 

I installed the crotch straps to the same = mounting point=20 with the lap belts.  I don't believe the mounting location of the = lap=20 belt on the center console will hold 3,000 lbs from what I saw on the = Legacy=20 so I will have to review that at a later date.  I believe the = hard point=20 on the seat back and the fuselage will probably hold. I was thinking = maybe of=20 bonding an attach point to the rear spar but I have no data yet on how = that=20 might work for the crotch straps.

 

The incremental cost was low for me. =  I sold the old=20 hardware, TSO'd belts and reels on ebay for $250 to a Alaska pilot. =  This=20 setup from Simpson is available for $299 which is inexpensive for the = high=20 quality and ability to handle higher loads and = shocks.

 

=46rom a comfort perspective, many of my = flights are cross=20 country and the inertial reels always had me bouncing around the = cockpit going=20 through Montana in the afternoon or in Texas during the summer. =  With=20 these hard points, I cinch down and become one with the airplane.=20  Control is better in turbulence and I feel liked I'm locked in a = little=20 tighter.  The setup is comfortable during long=20 flights.

 

Contact me if you'd like more info on how = I attached these=20 shoulder straps or if you have data on mounting the other=20 points.

 

Paul

Spruce Creek

 

 
<= /div>

= --Apple-Mail-177-442694685--