X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 07:37:49 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from imr-db01.mx.aol.com ([205.188.91.95] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0) with ESMTP id 5971872 for lml@lancaironline.net; Fri, 28 Dec 2012 07:25:11 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.188.91.95; envelope-from=vtailjeff@aol.com Received: from mtaout-ma03.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaout-ma03.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.41.3]) by imr-db01.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id BA314380000BC for ; Fri, 28 Dec 2012 07:24:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from [192.168.1.119] (24-107-65-42.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com [24.107.65.42]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mtaout-ma03.r1000.mx.aol.com (MUA/Third Party Client Interface) with ESMTPSA id 2FDC0E0000B7; Fri, 28 Dec 2012 07:24:35 -0500 (EST) References: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-627901A5-E1AE-4CA1-8FBA-2C998A98F2F4 X-Original-Message-Id: <73F6B469-8835-49AE-B49A-7853216B01DB@aol.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: iPad Mail (9B206) From: vtailjeff@aol.com Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Seat Belt update Legacy X-Original-Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2012 06:24:31 -0600 X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:471632160:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d290350dd8f812f64 X-AOL-IP: 24.107.65.42 --Apple-Mail-627901A5-E1AE-4CA1-8FBA-2C998A98F2F4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I would strongly recommend airbag seatbelts. Jeff Sent from my iPad On Dec 27, 2012, at 8:34 PM, Paul Miller wrote: > Agreed. The Simpson instructions show the geometry for restraint placemen= t. The Legacy is for me because the straps are slightly above shoulder heig= ht. Other aircraft here have placed a spacer above the backrest to provide t= hat level of protection. The primary point was those 3-4 foot straps extend= ing back into the fuselage have a 15% extension at impact. That puts a per= son's head close to the panel in some cases. > On 2012-12-27, at 6:26 PM, Sky2high@aol.com wrote: >=20 >> Gents, >> =20 >> The shoulder strap ends should not be mounted lower than one's shoulders a= s this could cause a compression of the spine in an accident. >> =20 >> Grayhawk >> =20 >> In a message dated 12/27/2012 8:54:41 A.M. Central Standard Time, sdfield= s68@att.net writes: >> Hello Paul, >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> I would like to know more about how you mounted the shoulder straps. I am= planning to do the same and don't need to re-invent what you've already don= e. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> Stan Fields >>=20 >> L2KR/G # 201 >>=20 >> Austin >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Pa= ul Miller >> Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2012 8:58 PM >> To: lml@lancaironline.net >> Subject: [LML] Seat Belt update Legacy >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> I made a safety and comfort upgrade with my Legacy recently and installed= 6-point Simpson belts. Here are the details and a few things to consider b= ased on input from safety expert Butch Stevens of Simpson who supplied the n= ew belts: >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> 1) I removed the inertial reels based on Butch's recommendation because r= eels are not reliable in high-G impacts. I also shortened the shoulder str= aps and bolted them behind the seats. Belts stretch 15% in an accident so i= f you want maximum protection from panel impact, remove the long straps from= the roof and shorten them as much as possible. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> 2) These Simpson belts and hardware are rated to 14,000 pounds. Testing= shows that most 3,000 lb rated belts don't make that figure. Butch's Cita= bria belts only tested to 1800lb before failure. Original hardware on our T= BM 700s failed at 600lb before we complained and an AD came out on the Frenc= h hardware. Butch's tests on Hooker failed at less than 3,000lb. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> 3) Belts lose 50% of their strength in two years from sunlight exposure. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> 4) High G pullups and crashes without the 6-points (crotch straps) often f= ind the pilot squeezed down near the rudder pedals because they slide undern= eath the lap belts. You must have the 6 points to avoid this problem. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> I installed the crotch straps to the same mounting point with the lap bel= ts. I don't believe the mounting location of the lap belt on the center con= sole will hold 3,000 lbs from what I saw on the Legacy so I will have to rev= iew that at a later date. I believe the hard point on the seat back and the= fuselage will probably hold. I was thinking maybe of bonding an attach poin= t to the rear spar but I have no data yet on how that might work for the cro= tch straps. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> The incremental cost was low for me. I sold the old hardware, TSO'd belt= s and reels on ebay for $250 to a Alaska pilot. This setup from Simpson is a= vailable for $299 which is inexpensive for the high quality and ability to h= andle higher loads and shocks. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> =46rom a comfort perspective, many of my flights are cross country and th= e inertial reels always had me bouncing around the cockpit going through Mon= tana in the afternoon or in Texas during the summer. With these hard points= , I cinch down and become one with the airplane. Control is better in turbu= lence and I feel liked I'm locked in a little tighter. The setup is comfort= able during long flights. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> Contact me if you'd like more info on how I attached these shoulder strap= s or if you have data on mounting the other points. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> Paul >>=20 >> Spruce Creek >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> =20 >=20 --Apple-Mail-627901A5-E1AE-4CA1-8FBA-2C998A98F2F4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
I would strongly recommend= airbag seatbelts.

Jeff

Sent from my iPad

On Dec 27, 2012, at 8:34 PM, Paul Miller <pjdmiller@gmail.com> wrote:

Agreed.  The Simpson instructions show t= he geometry for restraint placement.  The Legacy is for me because the s= traps are slightly above shoulder height.  Other aircraft here have pla= ced a spacer above the backrest to provide that level of protection.  T= he primary point was those 3-4 foot straps extending back into the fuselage h= ave a 15% extension at impact.   That puts a person's head close to the= panel in some cases.
On 2012-12-27, at 6:26 PM, Sky2high@aol.com wrote:

=
Gents,
 
The shoulder strap ends should not be mounted lower than one's=20 shoulders as this could cause a compression of the spine in an accident.
 
Grayhawk
 
In a message dated 12/27/2012 8:54:41 A.M. Central Standard Time,=20 sdfields68@att.net writes:

Hello=20 Paul,

 

I=20 would like to know more about how you mounted the shoulder straps. I am=20= planning to do the same and don't need to re-invent what you've already=20= done.

 

Stan=20 Fields

L2KR/G=20 # 201

Austin

 

From:= Lancair Mailing=20 List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Paul=20 Miller
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2012 8:58 PM
To:=20= lml@lancaironline.net
S= ubject: [LML] Seat Belt update=20 Legacy

 =

I made a safety and comfort upgrade with my= Legacy recently=20 and installed 6-point Simpson belts.  Here are the details and a few=20= things to consider based on input from safety expert Butch Stevens of Simp= son=20 who supplied the new belts:

 

1) I removed the inertial reels based on Butch= 's=20 recommendation because reels are not reliable in high-G impacts.   I a= lso=20 shortened the shoulder straps and bolted them behind the seats.   Bel= ts=20 stretch 15% in an accident so if you want maximum protection from panel=20= impact, remove the long straps from the roof and shorten them as much as=20= possible.

 

2) These Simpson belts and hardware are rated t= o 14,000=20 pounds.   Testing shows that most 3,000 lb rated belts don't make tha= t=20 figure.   Butch's Citabria belts only tested to 1800lb before failure= .=20   Original hardware on our TBM 700s failed at 600lb before we complai= ned=20 and an AD came out on the French hardware.  Butch's tests on Hooker=20= failed at less than 3,000lb.

 

3) Belts lose 50% of their strength in two yea= rs from=20 sunlight exposure.

 

4) High G pullups and crashes without the 6-po= ints (crotch=20 straps) often find the pilot squeezed down near the rudder pedals because t= hey=20 slide underneath the lap belts.  You must have the 6 points to avoid t= his=20 problem.

 

I installed the crotch straps to the same moun= ting point=20 with the lap belts.  I don't believe the mounting location of the lap= =20 belt on the center console will hold 3,000 lbs from what I saw on the Lega= cy=20 so I will have to review that at a later date.  I believe the hard po= int=20 on the seat back and the fuselage will probably hold. I was thinking maybe= of=20 bonding an attach point to the rear spar but I have no data yet on how tha= t=20 might work for the crotch straps.

 

The incremental cost was low for me.  I s= old the old=20 hardware, TSO'd belts and reels on ebay for $250 to a Alaska pilot.  = This=20 setup from Simpson is available for $299 which is inexpensive for the high= =20 quality and ability to handle higher loads and shocks.

 

=46rom a comfort perspective, many of my fligh= ts are cross=20 country and the inertial reels always had me bouncing around the cockpit g= oing=20 through Montana in the afternoon or in Texas during the summer.  With= =20 these hard points, I cinch down and become one with the airplane.=20  Control is better in turbulence and I feel liked I'm locked in a lit= tle=20 tighter.  The setup is comfortable during long=20 flights.

 

Contact me if you'd like more info on how I at= tached these=20 shoulder straps or if you have data on mounting the other=20 points.

 

Paul

Spruce Creek

 

 

<= /body>= --Apple-Mail-627901A5-E1AE-4CA1-8FBA-2C998A98F2F4--