Mailing List lml@lancaironline.net Message #61968
From: Jarrett Johnson <hjjohnson@sasktel.net>
Sender: <marv@lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Crossed Control Stall - REVIEWED
Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 08:27:40 -0400
To: <lml@lancaironline.net>

Don you certainly have some valid points, I wasn't as clear as I could have when I spoke of 'my aircraft'.  I'm flying a twin turboprop where 130[min] to 175knts on final is normal, 160 to the FAF is standard and my landing weight is nearly four tons. I've got no worries about making it to the runway with an engine down, however if I have two down my only recourse would be to fly my downwind overhead the runway at several thousand feet and practicaly split 's' to make the runway [an exageration, but only slightly]. Again, somethings translate to higher performance aircraft, I would strongly argue it does not apply to 'any aircraft'. I will continue to fly a larger than standard [light single] pattern because I believe it to be the safer option with my flight operations.

 

Fwiw

 

Jarrett Johnson

 

235/320 55% [and holding]

On Tue, 15 May 2012 15:44:53 -0400, Don Karich <donkarich@gmail.com> wrote:

As an instructor for many years, i've noticed that pilots in general(As the years go by) tend to use wider patterns and more airspeed in landing approaches resulting in longer landings and brake pad replacement at more frequent intervals. personally I regard the pattern and the appropriate speeds, bank angles and decent rates cardinal and unique to each aircraft and if practiced to adnausem to not only promote consistency, safety and a standard which dovetails in to other phases of fllight. In checkout things to be aware of (any aircraft) are width of downwind leg must be adjusted for width based on ability to safely land the plane power off from a position downwind abeam the numbers. memorize that and make it standard. I recall in my bonanza it was to position  the gas cap on the runway from pattern altitude. anything other than that meant not making it or overshooting final. secondly was arriving at an airspeed which  would for sure get me to the numbers(needs to be faster in a lancair that wants to fall out of the sky). of course layering in gear and flaps. as far as bank angle in pattern, Anything over 30 degrees is considered acrobatic. The real bonus to mastering this exact technique is in an emergency situation or powerfailure requiring one to spiral down and accurately put the plane on the ground one can predetermine how to set up based on a position downwind abeam.
I find that my legacy is no different than my Bonanza. Same rules apply only I usually add about 100ft to pattern altitude.I try to practice pulling power off downwind abeam the numbers just to verify that I could make it if necessary and usually I find I need to narrow the pattern abit.  ( also don't forget to factor in a crosswind). Above all STAY Coordinated throughout and practice. 

On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 7:09 AM, Gary Casey <casey.gary@yahoo.com> wrote:
I agree with Jarrett completely.  Simply looking at the video to establish root cause is overly simplistic.  But to look at it as a learning tool to see the potential result of using wishful thinking on the (skidding) turn to final is, I think, very dramatic.  If I were teaching ground school I wouldn't hesitate to show it as a learning tool.  I apologize if I interpreted the comment incorrectly, but I've heard similar things so many times I guess I'm overly sensitized :-).  As for the comment on the rounded turn to final, that might be one of picking the lesser of two evils.  Squaring off the base leg certainly gives more visibility of the possible  traffic, but it forces the turn to final to be more abrupt and less forgiving.  I think it depends on the circumstances as to which is safer.
Gary Casey

The problem with a rounded turn from downwind to final is this is your last chance to visually clear the traffic possibly on final

On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 10:44 AM, Jarrett Johnson <hjjohnson@sasktel.net> wrote:
Morning Gary, I guess my main concern was simply to attribute an accident from a grainy video to a finite control input is probably not sound "cause of crash" assessment technique.  There is simply too many variables here to finitly say what caused this crash. I'm certainly not rejecting the possibility, but I wouldn't limit it to that possibility either. The misalignment of the a/c with it's direction of flight is certainly interesting but does not eliminate a single engine [right failed]/ VMCA possibility, I've seen video in the past of similar approaches where due to camera angle it looks very missaligned but in reality is probably much less so. I noticed the smoke did not drift so there was limited wind on the field at least in the vertical range shown by the camera, this would lead me to think a tailwind turn was not likely a contribution to the crash. 
 
Something else I'd like to mention... I did not intent to project the " I'm so good" personna. Although I've some reasonable experiance and training, I'm no 'mind boggling' pilot, nor would I like to project that I am [if that was the case, ie; interpereted from my prior comments]. In the end we're all human and we can get into senarios where we never thought we'd get.. seeing them for what they are becoming is the name of the game in accident avoidance but it doesn't always stop us from getting there, I've scared the crap out of myself a couple times and was just lucky enough to live through and learn from it.
 
Btw, I'm w/ you on the rounded base/final turn, it makes for a smoother approach/landing and I find one can spot the possible overshoot much earlier [and adjust] in the larger turn vs a short/tight turn to final. 
 
Best Regards
 
Jarrett Johnson




 


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