X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 15:44:53 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from mail-yw0-f52.google.com ([209.85.213.52] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.5) with ESMTPS id 5543840 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 15 May 2012 15:00:40 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.213.52; envelope-from=donkarich@gmail.com Received: by yhpp61 with SMTP id p61so5949810yhp.25 for ; Tue, 15 May 2012 12:00:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.50.185.233 with SMTP id ff9mr8016696igc.57.1337108406826; Tue, 15 May 2012 12:00:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.130.3 with HTTP; Tue, 15 May 2012 12:00:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: X-Original-Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 12:00:06 -0700 X-Original-Message-ID: Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Crossed Control Stall - REVIEWED From: Don Karich X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=14dae934085b9d754b04c017cf02 --14dae934085b9d754b04c017cf02 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 As an instructor for many years, i've noticed that pilots in general(As the years go by) tend to use wider patterns and more airspeed in landing approaches resulting in longer landings and brake pad replacement at more frequent intervals. personally I regard the pattern and the appropriate speeds, bank angles and decent rates cardinal and unique to each aircraft and if practiced to adnausem to not only promote consistency, safety and a standard which dovetails in to other phases of fllight. In checkout things to be aware of (any aircraft) are width of downwind leg must be adjusted for width based on ability to safely land the plane power off from a position downwind abeam the numbers. memorize that and make it standard. I recall in my bonanza it was to position the gas cap on the runway from pattern altitude. anything other than that meant not making it or overshooting final. secondly was arriving at an airspeed which would for sure get me to the numbers(needs to be faster in a lancair that wants to fall out of the sky). of course layering in gear and flaps. as far as bank angle in pattern, Anything over 30 degrees is considered acrobatic. The real bonus to mastering this exact technique is in an emergency situation or powerfailure requiring one to spiral down and accurately put the plane on the ground one can predetermine how to set up based on a position downwind abeam. I find that my legacy is no different than my Bonanza. Same rules apply only I usually add about 100ft to pattern altitude.I try to practice pulling power off downwind abeam the numbers just to verify that I could make it if necessary and usually I find I need to narrow the pattern abit. ( also don't forget to factor in a crosswind). Above all STAY Coordinated throughout and practice. On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 7:09 AM, Gary Casey wrote: > I agree with Jarrett completely. Simply looking at the video to > establish root cause is overly simplistic. But to look at it as a learning > tool to see the potential result of using wishful thinking on the > (skidding) turn to final is, I think, very dramatic. If I were teaching > ground school I wouldn't hesitate to show it as a learning tool. I > apologize if I interpreted the comment incorrectly, but I've heard similar > things so many times I guess I'm overly sensitized :-). As for the comment > on the rounded turn to final, that might be one of picking the lesser of > two evils. Squaring off the base leg certainly gives more visibility of > the possible traffic, but it forces the turn to final to be more abrupt > and less forgiving. I think it depends on the circumstances as to which is > safer. > Gary Casey > > The problem with a rounded turn from downwind to final is this is your > last chance to visually clear the traffic possibly on final > > On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 10:44 AM, Jarrett Johnson > wrote: > > Morning Gary, I guess my main concern was simply to attribute an accident > from a grainy video to a finite control input is probably not sound "cause > of crash" assessment technique. There is simply too many variables here to > finitly say what caused this crash. I'm certainly not rejecting the > possibility, but I wouldn't limit it to that possibility either. The > misalignment of the a/c with it's direction of flight is certainly > interesting but does not eliminate a single engine [right failed]/ VMCA > possibility, I've seen video in the past of similar approaches where due to > camera angle it looks very missaligned but in reality is probably much less > so. I noticed the smoke did not drift so there was limited wind on the > field at least in the vertical range shown by the camera, this would lead > me to think a tailwind turn was not likely a contribution to the crash. > > Something else I'd like to mention... I did not intent to project the " > I'm so good" personna. Although I've some reasonable experiance and > training, I'm no 'mind boggling' pilot, nor would I like to project that I > am [if that was the case, ie; interpereted from my prior comments]. In the > end we're all human and we can get into senarios where we never thought > we'd get.. seeing them for what they are becoming is the name of the game > in accident avoidance but it doesn't always stop us from getting there, > I've scared the crap out of myself a couple times and was just lucky enough > to live through and learn from it. > > Btw, I'm w/ you on the rounded base/final turn, it makes for a smoother > approach/landing and I find one can spot the possible overshoot much > earlier [and adjust] in the larger turn vs a short/tight turn to final. > > Best Regards > > Jarrett Johnson > > --14dae934085b9d754b04c017cf02 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
As an instructor for many years, i've noticed that pilots in gener= al(As the years go by)=A0tend to use wider patterns and more airspeed in la= nding approaches resulting in longer landings and brake pad replacement at = more frequent intervals. personally I regard the pattern and the appropriat= e speeds, bank angles and decent rates cardinal and unique to each aircraft= and if practiced to adnausem to not only promote consistency, safety and a= standard which dovetails in to other phases of fllight. In checkout things= to be aware of (any aircraft) are width of downwind leg must be adjusted f= or width based on ability to safely land the plane power off from a positio= n downwind abeam the numbers. memorize that and make it standard. I recall = in my bonanza it was to=A0position =A0the gas cap on the runway from patter= n altitude. anything other than that meant not making it or overshooting fi= nal. secondly was arriving at an airspeed which=A0 would for sure get me to= the numbers(needs to be faster in a lancair that wants to fall out of the = sky). of course layering in gear and flaps. as far as bank angle in pattern= , Anything over 30 degrees is considered acrobatic. The real bonus to maste= ring this exact technique is in an emergency situation or powerfailure requ= iring one to spiral down and accurately put the plane on the ground one can= predetermine how to set up based on a position downwind abeam.
I find that my legacy is no different than my Bonanza. Same rules appl= y only I usually add about 100ft to pattern altitude.I try to practice pull= ing power off downwind abeam the numbers just to verify that I could make i= t if necessary and usually I find I need to narrow the pattern abit.=A0 ( a= lso don't forget=A0to factor in a crosswind). Above all STAY Coordinate= d throughout and practice.=A0

On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 7:09 AM, Gary Casey <casey.gary@yahoo.com> wrote:
I agree with Jarrett completely. =A0Simply looking at the video to est= ablish root cause is overly simplistic. =A0But to look at it as a learning = tool to see the potential result of using wishful thinking on the (skidding= ) turn to final is, I think, very dramatic. =A0If I were teaching ground sc= hool I wouldn't hesitate to show it as a learning tool. =A0I apologize = if I interpreted the comment incorrectly, but I've heard similar things= so many times I guess I'm overly sensitized :-). =A0As for the comment= on the rounded turn to final, that might be one of picking the lesser of t= wo evils. =A0Squaring off the base leg certainly gives more visibility of t= he possible =A0traffic, but it forces the turn to final to be more abrupt a= nd less forgiving. =A0I think it depends on the circumstances as to which i= s safer.
Gary Casey

The problem with a rounded turn from downwind to final = is this is your last chance to visually clear the traffic possibly on final=

On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 10:44 AM, Jarrett Johnson=A0= <hjjohnson@sasktel.net>=A0wrote:
Morning Gary, I guess= my main concern was simply to attribute an accident from a grainy video to= a finite control input is probably not sound "cause of crash" as= sessment technique.=A0 There is simply too many variables here to finitly s= ay what caused this crash. I'm certainly not rejecting the possibility,= but I wouldn't limit it to that possibility either.=A0The misalignment= of the a/c with it's direction of flight=A0is certainly interesting bu= t does=A0not eliminate a single engine [right failed]/ VMCA possibility, I&= #39;ve seen video in the past of similar approaches where due to camera ang= le it looks very missaligned but in reality is probably much less so. I not= iced the smoke did not drift so there was limited wind on the field at leas= t in the vertical range shown by the camera, this would lead me to think a = tailwind turn was not likely a contribution to the crash.=A0
=A0
Something else I'= d like to mention... I did not intent to project the " I'm so good= " personna. Although I've some reasonable experiance and training,= I'm no=A0'mind boggling'=A0pilot, nor would I like to project = that I am [if that was the case, ie; interpereted from my prior comments]. = In the end we're all human and we can get into senarios where we never = thought we'd get.. seeing them for what they are becoming is the name o= f the game in accident avoidance but it doesn't always stop us from get= ting there, I've scared the crap out of myself a couple times and was j= ust lucky enough to live through and learn from it.
=A0
Btw, I'm w/ you o= n the rounded base/final turn, it makes for a smoother approach/landing and= I find one can spot the=A0possible overshoot much earlier [and adjust]=A0i= n the larger turn vs a short/tight turn to final.=A0
=A0
Best Regards
=A0
Jarrett Johnson
=

--14dae934085b9d754b04c017cf02--