lml@lancaironline.net Mailing List Archive

Don your absolutly correct, in the context of flying a standard type circuit. I find that most times I'm flying a larger circit that the avg smaller a/c [same # minutes around just not as tight] such that I still intercept inbound on final outside where they normally would. It's not always the case but often it is, this gives me the ability to see them infront of me as I come in, any plane larger than the oldest or lightest and they usually have mode C and I see them on my TCAS so that to elliminates the question a second way.

As with anything in Aviation, everything is a compromise to some degree, I find that at 130-150knts yanking and banking in on final for the sake of a tight, crisp circuit, just gets the people sitting behind me a little irriated as their are used to a more gentle [or even just shallow-er bank angle] variety of flying.

Best Regards

Jarrett Johnson

235/320-- 55% [and holding]

On Mon, 14 May 2012 15:07:33 -0400, Don Karich <donkarich@gmail.com> wrote:

The problem with a rounded turn from downwind to final is this is your last chance to visually clear the traffic possibly on final

On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 10:44 AM, Jarrett Johnson <hjjohnson@sasktel.net> wrote:

Morning Gary, I guess my main concern was simply to attribute an accident from a grainy video to a finite control input is probably not sound "cause of crash" assessment technique. There is simply too many variables here to finitly say what caused this crash. I'm certainly not rejecting the possibility, but I wouldn't limit it to that possibility either. The misalignment of the a/c with it's direction of flight is certainly interesting but does not eliminate a single engine [right failed]/ VMCA possibility, I've seen video in the past of similar approaches where due to camera angle it looks very missaligned but in reality is probably much less so. I noticed the smoke did not drift so there was limited wind on the field at least in the vertical range shown by the camera, this would lead me to think a tailwind turn was not likely a contribution to the crash.

Something else I'd like to mention... I did not intent to project the " I'm so good" personna. Although I've some reasonable experiance and training, I'm no 'mind boggling' pilot, nor would I like to project that I am [if that was the case, ie; interpereted from my prior comments]. In the end we're all human and we can get into senarios where we never thought we'd get.. seeing them for what they are becoming is the name of the game in accident avoidance but it doesn't always stop us from getting there, I've scared the crap out of myself a couple times and was just lucky enough to live through and learn from it.

Btw, I'm w/ you on the rounded base/final turn, it makes for a smoother approach/landing and I find one can spot the possible overshoot much earlier [and adjust] in the larger turn vs a short/tight turn to final.

Best Regards

Jarrett Johnson

235/320-- 55% [and holding]

On Sun, 13 May 2012 18:51:25 -0400, Gary Casey <casey.gary@yahoo.com> wrote:

I'm not sure, but I tend to believe the original explanation of a cross-controlled stall. However, the part of the explanation that speculates that he is going "too fast" doesn't go with the stall theory. Could it have been an engine failure/Vmc stall? I suppose, but looking at the plane visibly going sideways while pointing right at the camera leads me to believe the cross-control theory. Regardless, it doesn't make sense to me to reject a likely explanation just because it could be something else. And anyway, over the years I've found myself rounding the base leg into a continuous turn as a preventive measure against inadvertently tightening the turn to final. At least in my case, to say "I'll never do that because I'm so good" would be purely delusional.

Safe flying,

Gary Casey

From Jarrett

Alan I'm curious how you can tell so much from this video? It is certainly a possible explanation but so is a Vmca excursion? Or possible a stall due to aileron application only. I find it curious that he applied any rudder at that point in his flight or how you see this in the video?I've read elsewhere that this particular event occurred on a Maint flight after some serious work on the plane (possibly there was a loss of power on one engine during the flight).

I fly (corporately) a VERY similar a/c and I've NEVER 'horsed' it around with rudder with the exception of simulated single engine overshoot training, the abrupt movement felt in the planes rear seats is would be very uncomfortable due to the yaw.

I agree that cross controlling would not be a good thing while flying in this stage of flight but I see no way to chalk this crash in the video up to this application of controls.

Fwiw

Jarrett Johnson