X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 14:57:02 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from [74.208.5.67] (HELO mailout-us.mail.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.1) with SMTP id 5094147 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 16 Aug 2011 14:54:09 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=74.208.5.67; envelope-from=cfi@instructor.net Received: (qmail 1133 invoked by uid 0); 16 Aug 2011 18:53:34 -0000 Received: from 184.88.0.100 by rms-us007.v300.gmx.net with HTTP Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="========GMXBoundary165641313520813462199" X-Original-Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 18:53:33 +0000 From: "Ron Galbraith" X-Original-Message-ID: <20110816185333.165640@gmx.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [LML] Re: IFR GPS X-Original-To: "Lancair Mailing List" X-Authenticated: #73491717 X-Flags: 0001 X-Mailer: GMX.com Web Mailer x-registered: 0 X-GMX-UID: y9giA48hymCuzXddWDA0n3siJihyahDr --========GMXBoundary165641313520813462199 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Two separate issues. To fly using a GPS in the NAS IFR, you must have an IFR certifyable GPS. There are even two separate certifications there (enroute and terminal). Just installing a certified GPS in any airplane (factory built or home built) doesn't make the GPS IFR certified. It's actually just "certifiable". You must go through the certification process in order to make the GPS "certified" and legal in your airplane. If you are installing a new GPS in an airplane that is already built and with an A/W, then the only way you can certify it is to fill out the proper paperwork, do the required tests and submit that paper work to the local FSDO. They will in turn approve (or dissaprove) of the installation and give you the proper paperwork to make it legal. I've gone through this many times and something that factory built guys don't worry about because the avionics shops take care of it (or should), but if you are installing it yourself then you have to do the paperwork and send to the FSDO to be totally legal. Some could argue that the aircraft builder can "bless" the certification and if you feel that works, then go for it but you still must document that it meets IFR certification standards. The nav data must also be current to be legal. When you build an airplane and use IFR certifiable GPS, then you can bless the installation yourself before it receives an A/W but you still have to document the IFR certifiable process which most guys don't. They don't because they don't know they should. It's actually quite easy and quick and requires watching the GPS signals when transmitting on certain frequencies and other items like that. It's also just the smart thing to do. The second issue is charts. You can indeed use an iPad for your charts. This is a little different in that the charts you are using don't necessarly have to be up to date with a current date. As long as you have verified the charts have not changed, or note any changes then you are still legal using out of date charts. (iPad or paper). There are many many airplanes flying out there in the NAS system IFR that don't meet the certified requirements and that is potentially dangerous. Do yourselves all a big favor and make sure your installations meet the requirements. It's not only the proper thing to do, but also a safety issue. Do you have a notch filter in the Comm antenna feedline? Do you need one? I know of two Lancair 4's I was instructing in that would lose GPS signal when transmitting on certain frequencies. Both of these aircraft didn't have the notch filter and installing it fixed the problem. The owners just shrugged it off as a hickup. Not good if you are on an approach, transmit and lose your navigation signal. Both of these aircraft had never been properly IFR certified. Just because it's a homebuilt doesn't mean you don't have to meet certain standards for IFR flight. You must comply with transponder and pitot/static tests every 24 months too which I know some of you out there don't think you have to do since you are in an experimental airplane. Ron ----- Original Message ----- From: John Barrett Sent: 08/16/11 12:52 PM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Re: IFR GPS Legal for IFR flight? I'm not sure of the finer details. I believe you have to have an IFR certified GPS in the panel to legally fly IFR. I think the builder of the airplane may have the authority to approve, but perhaps the boxes must meet certain criteria. I have a GNS430 and dual Cheltons in my LIVP - more than covers it. As far as charts and plates on hand, I assume that I'm legal flying with the Foreflight product for this purpose. The Garmin 396 does nothing to legalize your IFR flying but my 496 is a darn good tool for backup navigating in any conditions. (I spend more time watching it than I do the LOC/VOR needles and DME for sure) - even on the approaches. You probably need to find out if the GRT EFIS can legally be used IFR and if it's approved in your bird. Hope this helps with your questions. John --========GMXBoundary165641313520813462199 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Two sepa= rate issues.   To fly using a GPS in the NAS IFR, you must have a= n IFR certifyable GPS.  There are even two separate certifications the= re (enroute and terminal).  Just installing a certified GPS in any air= plane (factory built or home built) doesn't make the GPS IFR certified.&nbs= p; It's actually just "certifiable".  You must go through the certific= ation process in order to make the GPS "certified" and legal in your airpla= ne.   If you are installing a new GPS in an airplane that is alre= ady built and with an A/W, then the only way you can certify it is to fill = out the proper paperwork, do the required tests and submit that paper work = to the local FSDO.   They will in turn approve (or dissaprove) of= the installation and give you the proper paperwork to make it legal. =   I've gone through this many times and something that factory built g= uys don't worry about because the avionics shops take care of it (or should= ), but if you are installing it yourself then you have to do the paperwork = and send to the FSDO to be totally legal.   Some could argue that= the aircraft builder can "bless" the certification and if you feel that wo= rks, then go for it but you still must document that it meets IFR certifica= tion standards.   The nav data must also be current to be legal. =   When you build an airplane and use IFR certifiable GPS, then you can= bless the installation yourself before it receives an A/W but you still ha= ve to document the IFR certifiable process which most guys don't.  The= y don't because they don't know they should.  It's actually quite easy= and quick and requires watching the GPS signals when transmitting on certa= in frequencies and other items like that.  It's also just the smart th= ing to do. 
=20 The second issue is charts.  You can indeed use an iPad for your chart= s.  This is a little different in that the charts you are using don't = necessarly have to be up to date with a current date.  As long as you = have verified the charts have not changed, or note any changes then you are= still legal using out of date charts.  (iPad or paper). 
= =20
=20 There are many many airplanes flying out there in the NAS system IFR that d= on't meet the certified requirements and that is potentially dangerous.&nbs= p; Do yourselves all a big favor and make sure your installations meet the = requirements.  It's not only the proper thing to do, but also a safety= issue.    Do you have a notch filter in the Comm antenna feedlin= e?  Do you need one?   I know of two Lancair 4's I was instructin= g in that would lose GPS signal when transmitting on certain frequencies.&n= bsp; Both of these aircraft didn't have the notch filter and installing it = fixed the problem.  The owners just shrugged it off as a hickup. = Not good if you are on an approach,  transmit and lose your navigatio= n signal.  Both of these aircraft had never been properly IFR certifie= d.  Just because it's a homebuilt doesn't mean you don't have to meet = certain standards for IFR flight.   You must comply with transpon= der and pitot/static tests every 24 months too which I know some of you out= there don't think you have to do since you are in an experimental airplane= . 
=20
=20 Ron
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20

=20 =C2=A0

=20
=20

=20 ----- = Original Message -----

=20

=20 From: = John Barrett

=20

=20 Sent: = 08/16/11 12:52 PM

=20

=20 To: lm= l@lancaironline.net

=20

=20 Subjec= t: [LML] Re: IFR GPS

=20
=20
=20
=20 
=20
Legal for IFR flight?  I'm not sure of the finer details.  I believe you=20
have to have an IFR certified GPS in the panel to legally fly IFR.  I think=
=20
the builder of the airplane may have the authority to approve, but perhaps=
=20
the boxes must meet certain criteria.  I have a GNS430 and dual Cheltons in=
=20
my LIVP - more than covers it.  As far as charts and plates on hand, I=20
assume that I'm legal flying with the Foreflight product for this purpose.=
=20

The Garmin 396 does nothing to legalize your IFR flying but my 496 is a dar=
n=20
good tool for backup navigating in any conditions.  (I spend more time=20
watching it than I do the LOC/VOR needles and DME for sure) - even on the=
=20
approaches.=20

You probably need to find out if the GRT EFIS can legally be used IFR and i=
f=20
it's approved in your bird.=20

Hope this helps with your questions.=20

John=20
=20
=20
=20
=20 --========GMXBoundary165641313520813462199--