Return-Path: Received: from not69box.atlantic.net ([209.208.121.25] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2b1) with SMTP id 3145703 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 04 Apr 2004 18:44:39 -0400 Received: (qmail 22002 invoked by uid 0); 4 Apr 2004 22:44:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO main) (209.208.110.24) by not69box.atlantic.net with SMTP; 4 Apr 2004 22:44:28 -0000 From: "Dean Head" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Apex seals Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2004 18:44:27 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0030_01C41A74.DF763110" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 Thread-Index: AcQak+gdeRzHjF1IQyWWgIIhkCtOXAAAVc+w In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C41A74.DF763110 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rusty, Thanks for the info...It is Wayne's engine. I would like to ask you a couple more questions about them. I could email you privately if that OK? Also, I ran across the site in AU. They have some interesting ceramic seals. http://www.selectmaz.com.au/apex_seals.htm. Thanks Dean _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Russell Duffy Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2004 6:26 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Apex seals I'm trying to back track and gather some info on the engine that I purchased from a previous group member. I'm guessing you bought Wayne's engine, or maybe Gordon's? Both were modified by RX-7 specialties. I think I can put my hands on a set of mods that each of these had. I have one of the 13b's that was (as I was told) part of a group purchase (members of this group) from a company called RX7 Specialties out of Canada. I don't know of any group purchase, but I do have one of these engines. Below is pasted from a message that I sent someone back when I bought mine. It explains where the engines came from. First, Mazda will sell brand new engines to anyone who orders at least 120. That's really more engines than the average person can use, so these "new" engine deals are pretty rare. These engines were destined to be used by the natural gas, rather than oil business. It seems that some natural gas is contaminated, and is called "sour gas". The best I understand, you can't avoid getting some bad with the good. The problem is that the contaminants in sour gas is toxic, and poisonous in high enough quantities. The gas company must not be able to filter out the contaminant, or it's just not feasible to do it, because they end up with a certain quantity of sour gas that they have to get rid of. If it were up to the gas company, they would just burn it off, but the environmentalists won't let them do that. They're only allowed to burn off (flare) a certain amount, and they would have to pay to have the rest disposed of. The loophole in the rule is that it can be burned if it's being put to some productive use. Enter the rotary. The gas company realized that they can burn this sour gas in rotary engines, and run generators. They use the electricity for their needs, and any extra is sold back to the power grid. Amazingly, they turned something they had to pay to dispose of, into something they can make money from. To give you some idea of the scope of this, each engine is running a 75 kva generator 24/7, and the company that's buying these engines wants a contract to be supplied with 900 (!!!) more engines. Specifically, the engines are running at 3600 rpm, under a fairly heavy load. The company used to use 454 V8 engines, but the sour gas eats the valves up and they don't last long. For sour gas use, these rotaries are modified for durability with ceramic apex seals, ceramic coated rotors, and additional hardening of the rotor and side housings. With these modifications, the engines show zero wear on the apex seals, and less than one ten thousandth wear on the side seals, after 3000 hours of operation. One engine ran 16,000 hours, which is about 2 years of continuous operation. Others are as high as 8000 hours, but they don't know the average hours of operation before failure. Lest you think these engines are cared for in any special way, realize that they run 24/7, and only stop for oil changes. Also, they don't run oil coolers! They just run a bypass hose were the cooler should be, and they're just sitting out in the open running...all over the countryside. I am especially looking for info on the ceramic apex seals that this engine contains. I would also like to discuss the engine with others here on the group that bought them. I ordered my engine "as is", so they shipped the engine without doing anything to it. I wanted the ceramic seals, but since I was going to run a turbo, they advised against them. They said the seals would not withstand turbo usage. The story was that they had these ceramic seals specially made, which is why there were so much cheaper than most. Hard to say where they really came from. The only problem with these engines is that Mazda test ran them, then didn't drain the water. After a couple years of sitting around, they form some layers of rust and crud in the water jackets. Since yours was modified, you should be good to go. Mine eventually got sent to Bruce Turrentine for 9.7 rotors, porting, and mods, so it got cleaned out there. Hopefully, that helps some. Cheers, Rusty (still too windy, tomorrow should be better) ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C41A74.DF763110 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message

Rusty,

Thanks for the info…..It is = Wayne’s = engine. I would like to ask you a couple more questions about them. I could email = you privately if that OK? Also, I ran across the site in AU. They have some interesting ceramic seals. http://www.selectmaz.= com.au/apex_seals.htm.

Thanks

 Dean<= /p>

 

 

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Russell Duffy
Sent: Sunday, April 04, = 2004 6:26 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Apex seals

 

I’m trying to back track and gather some info = on the engine that I purchased from a previous group member. 

 

I'm guessing you bought Wayne's engine, or maybe = Gordon's?  Both were modified by RX-7 specialties.  I think I can put my hands on = a set of mods that each of these had.

  

  I have one of the 13b’s that was (as I = was told) part of a group purchase (members of this group) from a company = called RX7 Specialties out of Canada. 

 

I don't know of any group purchase, = but I do have one of these engines.  Below is pasted from a message that = I sent someone back when I bought mine.  It explains where the = engines came from. 

 

First, Mazda will sell brand new = engines to anyone who orders at least 120.  That's really more engines than = the average person can use, so these "new" engine deals are pretty rare.  

 

These engines were destined to = be used by the natural gas, rather than oil business.  It seems that some natural gas is contaminated, and is called "sour gas".  The best I understand, you can't avoid = getting some bad with the good.  The problem is that the contaminants in = sour gas is toxic, and poisonous in high enough quantities.  = The gas company must not be able to filter out the contaminant, or = it's just not feasible to do it, because they end up with a certain quantity = of sour gas that they have to get rid of.  If it were up to the = gas company, they would just burn it off, but the environmentalists won't = let them do that.  They're only allowed to burn off (flare) a certain = amount, and they would have to pay to have the rest disposed of.  The loophole in the rule is that it can be burned if it's being put to = some productive use.  Enter the rotary.  The gas company = realized that they can burn this sour gas in rotary engines, and run generators.  They use the electricity for their needs, and = any extra is sold back to the power grid.  Amazingly, they turned something they had to pay to dispose of, into something they can = make money from.  To give you some idea of the scope of this, each = engine is running a 75 kva generator 24/7, and the company that's buying these = engines wants a contract to be supplied with 900 (!!!) more = engines.  

 

Specifically, the engines are = running at 3600 rpm, under a fairly heavy load.  The company used to use 454 V8 engines, but the sour gas eats the valves up and = they don't last long.    For sour gas use, these = rotaries are modified for durability with ceramic apex seals, ceramic = coated rotors, and additional hardening of the rotor and side housings.  With these modifications, the engines show = zero wear on the apex seals, and less than one ten thousandth wear on the side = seals, after 3000 hours of operation.  One engine ran 16,000 = hours, which is about 2 years of continuous operation.  Others = are as high as 8000 hours, but they don't know the average hours of operation before failure.  Lest you think these engines are cared for in any special way, realize that they run 24/7, and = only stop for oil changes.  Also, they don't run oil coolers!  They = just run a bypass hose were the cooler should be, and they're just = sitting out in the open running...all over the countryside.   

 

   

  I am especially looking for info on the = ceramic apex seals that this engine contains. I would also like to discuss the engine = with others here on the group that bought them. 

 

 

I ordered my engine "as = is", so they shipped the engine without doing anything to it.  I wanted the ceramic seals, but since I was going to run a turbo, = they advised against them.  They said the seals would not withstand turbo usage.  The story was that they had these ceramic seals = specially made, which is why there were so much cheaper than most.  Hard = to say where they really came from. 

 

The only problem with these engines = is that Mazda test ran them, then didn't drain the water.  After a = couple years of sitting around, they form some layers of rust and crud in the water jackets.  Since yours was modified, you should be good = to go.  Mine eventually got sent to Bruce Turrentine for 9.7 = rotors, porting, and mods, so it got cleaned out there.  =  

 

Hopefully, that helps = some.

 

Cheers,

=

Rusty (still too windy, tomorrow = should be better)    

 

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