Return-Path: Sender: (Marvin Kaye) To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2004 22:41:52 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.232] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2b1) with ESMTP id 3144223 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 03 Apr 2004 15:17:40 -0500 Received: from user-33qt4k4.dialup.mindspring.com ([199.174.146.132] helo=Carol) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1B9rZw-0000xf-00 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 03 Apr 2004 12:17:21 -0800 X-Original-Message-ID: <010f01c419b8$a2c9fd80$0000a398@Carol> From: "sqpilot@earthlink" X-Original-To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B Intake Manifolds X-Original-Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 14:15:53 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_010C_01C41986.2C891570" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_010C_01C41986.2C891570 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 13B Intake ManifoldsHi, Barry....sorry for the delay in responding....I = flew down to West Palm Beach to try to test fly a 13b powered canard and = give a little flight instruction in a Cozy. I think you made a few of = my dormant memory cells come back to life. I believe that Dave Atkins = DID say the injectors are 850cc. As far as horsepower expected, I will = be pretty happy if I can get 170 horsepower. Anything above that is a = Christmas present. I do not have a turbo installed. My engine is now = idling nicely around 1400 rpm. It might idle better at lower rpm's once = I lean it out a little and install the prop? Your mention of the duty = cycle is interesting....that might be why my throttlebody drips some = fuel after engine shut-down, even if I turn off the fuel pumps to kill = the engine. Thanks for all of your input and information. Paul Conner ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Barry Gardner=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 6:46 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B Intake Manifolds With that clue, I think I know my answer. Atkins must have supplied = you with the 850cc injectors that powered the 85-86 GSL-SE 13B. In that = iteration of the car, Mazda used those.=20 In 1986-87, Mazda switched to using four 460cc injectors in the = naturally-aspirated car and using four 550cc injectors in the Turbo II. = While those had more potential for overall fuel flow, it meant that they = had them staged. I'm not positive of the exact RPM changeover to using = all four but my recollection is that it was 3800 rpm. My Turbo II has a = little hicup in acceleration when it passes through that point and the = factory wrestled with getting that right--something usually chalked up a = bad ground. They worked fine when new but sometimes developed the hicup = when they got a little older and the ground was a tad less reliable. How many horsepower did you intend to get out of your turbocharged = rig? I think you're fine but might be near the limit at a little over = 200 HP. Any projections? You've got 1700cc/min. The naturally-aspirated car ran four times = 460cc or 1840cc. The 87 Turbo II ran four times 550cc or 2200cc.=20 Somewhere around here I've got a book on fuel injection that figures = out the conversion for fuel adequacy (and helps with the metric/min to = pounds/hr conversion). I think you also have to use an 80% or 85% duty = cycle or else the injector is basically open all the time, which for = some reason isn't recommended. The reason I asked about this is that those 850cc injectors were some = of the biggest in the auto world, at least at the time and might be = still. Other manufacturers used multiple injectors that corresponded to = the number of cylinders, so typically you find hot-rodded Mustangs, = etc., using eight, which of course could be smaller individually to sum = to an even bigger whole. When I saw your two injectors, the reason I = wrote was because I thought you might have discovered some even bigger = ones than the GSL-SE. Rumor was that Mazda had a hard time getting the big ones like you've = got to run smoothly at the bottom end, which is why they switched in the = next iteration of the car to four injectors--but remember they were = looking for a smooth 750 RPM idle speed. Aviators need neither that = smoothness nor an idle that low. Anyhow, I was just surprised to see the two big MONGO injectors = feeding all that airflow. I think the Mazda 850cc injectors might be on = that table that Paul Lamar reprints from time to time, if you're = interested in working out the lbs/hr and then BSFC conversion to = re-confirm the top end of your fuel flow. Barry Gardner Wheaton, IL ----- Original Message -----=20 From: sqpilot@earthlink=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 9:28 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B Intake Manifolds I purchased the throttlebody, ECU and programmer from Atkins Rotary. = The throttlebody came with the injectors already installed. Not sure = what the injector flow, model, etc are. I have that info somewhere, but = it will take some searching through a lot of e-mails to find it. Paul = Conner ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Barry Gardner=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 4:23 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B Intake Manifolds Paul Conner-- I was looking at that picture of your manifold you enclosed. It = seemed like you only had two injectors.=20 If true, what kind of fuel flow are they rated for and what is the = brand/model number? Those must be big--no, MAMMOTH--injectors. Barry Gardner Wheaton, IL ------=_NextPart_000_010C_01C41986.2C891570 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 13B Intake Manifolds
Hi, Barry....sorry for the delay in = responding....I=20 flew down to West Palm Beach to try to test fly a 13b powered canard and = give a=20 little flight instruction in a Cozy.  I think you made a few of my = dormant=20 memory cells come back to life.  I believe that Dave Atkins DID say = the=20 injectors are 850cc.   As far as horsepower expected, I will = be pretty=20 happy if I can get 170 horsepower. Anything above that is a Christmas=20 present. I do not have a turbo installed.  My engine is now = idling=20 nicely around 1400 rpm.  It might idle better at lower rpm's once I = lean it=20 out a little and install the prop? Your mention of the duty cycle is=20 interesting....that might be why my throttlebody drips some fuel after = engine=20 shut-down, even if I turn off the fuel pumps to kill the engine. Thanks = for all=20 of your input and information.  Paul Conner
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Barry Gardner
Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 = 6:46=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B = Intake=20 Manifolds

With that clue, I think I know my = answer. Atkins=20 must have supplied you with the 850cc injectors that powered the 85-86 = GSL-SE=20 13B. In that iteration of the car, Mazda used those.
 
In 1986-87, Mazda switched to using = four 460cc=20 injectors in the naturally-aspirated car and using four 550cc = injectors in the=20 Turbo II. While those had more potential for overall fuel flow, it = meant that=20 they had them staged. I'm not positive of the exact RPM changeover to = using=20 all four but my recollection is that it was 3800 rpm. My Turbo II has = a little=20 hicup in acceleration when it passes through that point and the = factory=20 wrestled with getting that right--something usually chalked up a bad = ground.=20 They worked fine when new but sometimes developed the hicup when they = got a=20 little older and the ground was a tad less reliable.
 
How many horsepower did you intend to = get out of=20 your turbocharged rig? I think you're fine but might be near the limit = at a=20 little over 200 HP. Any projections?
 
You've got 1700cc/min. The = naturally-aspirated=20 car ran four times 460cc or 1840cc. The 87 Turbo II ran four times = 550cc or=20 2200cc.
 
Somewhere around here I've got a book = on fuel=20 injection that figures out the conversion for fuel adequacy (and helps = with=20 the metric/min to pounds/hr conversion). I think you also have to use = an 80%=20 or 85% duty cycle or else the injector is basically open all the time, = which=20 for some reason isn't recommended.
 
The reason I asked about this is that = those 850cc=20 injectors were some of the biggest in the auto world, at least at the = time and=20 might be still. Other manufacturers used multiple injectors that = corresponded=20 to the number of cylinders, so typically you find hot-rodded Mustangs, = etc.,=20 using eight, which of course could be smaller individually to sum to = an even=20 bigger whole. When I saw your two injectors, the reason I wrote was = because I=20 thought you might have discovered some even bigger ones than the=20 GSL-SE.
 
Rumor was that Mazda had a hard time = getting the=20 big ones like you've got to run smoothly at the bottom end, which is = why they=20 switched in the next iteration of the car to four injectors--but = remember they=20 were looking for a smooth 750 RPM idle speed. Aviators need neither = that=20 smoothness nor an idle that low.
 
Anyhow, I was just surprised to see = the two big=20 MONGO injectors feeding all that airflow. I think the Mazda 850cc = injectors=20 might be on that table that Paul Lamar reprints from time to time, if = you're=20 interested in working out the lbs/hr and then BSFC conversion to = re-confirm=20 the top end of your fuel flow.
 
Barry Gardner
Wheaton, IL
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 sqpilot@earthlink
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, = 2004 9:28=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B = Intake=20 Manifolds

I purchased the throttlebody, ECU = and=20 programmer from Atkins Rotary. The throttlebody came with the = injectors=20 already installed.  Not sure what the injector flow, model, etc = are.  I have that info somewhere, but it will take some = searching=20 through a lot of e-mails to find it.   Paul = Conner
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Barry Gardner =
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, = 2004 4:23=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = 13B Intake=20 Manifolds

Paul Conner--
 
I was looking at that picture of = your=20 manifold you enclosed. It seemed like you only had two injectors.=20
 
If true, what kind of fuel flow = are they=20 rated for and what is the brand/model number?  Those must be=20 big--no, MAMMOTH--injectors.
 
Barry Gardner
Wheaton, IL
 
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