X-CGP-ClamAV-Result: CLEAN X-VirusScanner: Niversoft's CGPClamav Helper v1.23.0 (ClamAV engine v0.103.0) X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-KAS-Score: 0 [] From: " 12348ung@gmail.com" Received: from mail-pg1-f172.google.com ([209.85.215.172] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.3.5) with ESMTPS id 372724 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 05:01:42 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.215.172; envelope-from=12348ung@gmail.com Received: by mail-pg1-f172.google.com with SMTP id e7so18768473pgk.2 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 02:01:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version :thread-index:content-language; bh=IL1A7yrufc2oh9vmgNTRUXLDUaryBchc50FtxPbKmdU=; b=XKlCAgaABxcxVpNxghxhtteNnk/d55KtqYZOQ9bSXGrQITIEatIAIkgmkUFL5FO5al JiTp4Pu4S4XY2ZWNBe6pXoYFIfG0kmFYaop9I83mya7PHbFjfTXi66ji3cMmw4pc3Z5W ert8rT42TSc+VxpC3x4T/YVt2JTJO8eCA7eWbDM9iYh1uFSmpdZsWVKZ3nhRuoJKR5w8 FdjrVfHXJvhh1mOP6hC+Ing7s12ZmBgEXERDXt3dFMUEmUs3+thNw4jckUKXbZU01Jdg +Tk/KCh7mh17nwwOg5BeH6jEYZIgqEny4d/fXF3ZEiMhhXudR7VxV4UHf3PCeK4bZxdC qNnQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date :message-id:mime-version:thread-index:content-language; bh=IL1A7yrufc2oh9vmgNTRUXLDUaryBchc50FtxPbKmdU=; b=pGVUgXhiAE3+8FTb3mPkuTA0BdTBtFAZMsFcbThIbcO0CgLfXww7bHJ3x6CcnU2vlK 1/A5fvd97EYbgw8pR94GwztttbLiNNK8POYbMh0uDANQxivnc3QfVYvOyb24Y1o/lwt9 blJ245/vwl2R7u5fyDKYeFOkjoJ67NhA93X/d3NGy7PyFB+Wo2QJSOgdmPaUex/J3PRV WTXDDwdRSNP7ntE9F6upyFjZcB1FH8VQki4A/TOohGCXP2M7RT/lvOA94f3SSBvABY5M ACOFWJ+HLwBdY7tt6SoIL+KgMKnkEa145q5Z+LX0UjAHUoxFrNUNGBcOwBecjubVqYKE jSDA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531HZxZBfdRuMC8wEhtWylkh/CQlgbsc0ON9bdi4qotJzrJRcs70 bGV3VgMyI8G9qRfQyzI3qqsQXy+l/p0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwJJ0tEIjfLvfCcq5NHHad8pQxcZ0VuMVVz09VBjZWknbuYxa5rg31KlZiuXYYUpa95yA/8TQ== X-Received: by 2002:a62:ce07:0:b0:44c:fef2:e410 with SMTP id y7-20020a62ce07000000b0044cfef2e410mr33934992pfg.71.1634634085908; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 02:01:25 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: <12348ung@gmail.com> Received: from UserPC ([103.198.24.78]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l1sm4742957pgt.39.2021.10.19.02.01.24 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 19 Oct 2021 02:01:25 -0700 (PDT) To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Ag Ops Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 20:01:22 +1100 Message-ID: <002c01d7c4c7$e4f05290$aed0f7b0$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002D_01D7C524.1860CA90" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQHfW6MQP5AEHzI83nzq3hyMy40yNavK0bEw Content-Language: en-us This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01D7C524.1860CA90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Andrew, Thoughts to date, First check out the Yamaha = RMAX drone, a small drone with many hours behind it but if you thought a = self propelled Ag sprayer was dear???? Definitely a helicopter but looking at up to a 500KG load (optimistic) = At least 300 KG. 400HP at least., Best is a twin rotor side by side for downdraft for spray into the crop. = This negates the tail rotor. Electric is too heavy and replacement batteries are dearer than the ag = sprayer. Just straight direct drive simple mechanical. Remember = cockies have to operate and fix this! Looking at 3 blade rotors as cheaper to make and for transport over = rough roads. Know where to get a cast 8 foot blade already Turbo 2 rotor with straight clutch drive =E2=80=93 simple and cheap to = replace. Car diff drive to both rotors and then 90 degree to each = rotor. Gear drive means rotors can intermesh with leading blade on the = outside for manoeuvrability. The problem with a heavy drone is inertia = at the end of a run if you have to stay within your farm boundaries., = The turbo give the extra power needed and quietens that rotary scream , = so to not notify the neighbours and indeed the whole district as to what = you are up to ---- Night spraying would also help!! So far totally = forbidden . Many controllers are being already made, looking at the = Canadians to date. Much more complicated than the brief above. Thankfully I am talking to = a foundry that can cast most bits if demand is there =E2=80=93 cost will = dictate. Full alloy engine also can be cast. Thankfully the rotary = is relatively simple. Just again money for set up at foundry Then I keep checking my birth certificate and it is not friendly. Neil. =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft =20 Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2021 11:02 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Ag Ops =20 Neil Ok lets design it. I reckon we have both been thinking along much the = same lines. =20 You thinking rotary wing, something the size of a R22 or smaller? I reckon vertical mount rotary engine, planetary then differential = gearset to give counter rotating rotor drive. Can all fit in a very = compact package directly above the hopper.=20 Planetary should have no fixed gears but connected to pancake style = axial flux motor/generators that form the gearbox housing, control the = output ratio and replace alternaror and starter on the motor. no clutch = is required & engine can be set to run at constant rpm. Have also considered hybrid drive of engine/generator driving counter = rotating motors, easier to build but ends up heavy. We have already helped development of agopengps, which we use on our = machines for application control, mapping & autosteer. Its not = autonomous just yet, but is open source, farmers helping farmers is the = motto. would just rewrite it into a specific operating system for this = application with 3d maps. =20 I like the idea of keeping it all open source. That way if anyone uses = or copies then they take responsibility. Plus ideas flow between the = crazies for superfast development. =20 Andrew =20 On Tue, 19 Oct 2021 at 4:53 am, 12348ung@gmail.com = > wrote: Andrew, Yeah, that is the current legislation, but with = demand that will change =E2=80=93 I think. Here in Oz, regardless = farmers will disregard the directives as CASA has not got the resources = to police. Even if reported, we are simply spraying water!@!! That damage sounds bad, have been called on to fix the = fibreglass on the local ag sprayer to keep him in the air,--- No I must = be dreaming, paint covers a lot of repairs!!! Currently here any unmanned aircraft must be fully certified if over 25 = KG!!! That will kill all and sundry but under experimental??? --- = will be interesting as CASA fights to keep authority.=20 So far great season here and late with wet cold conditions. Fear = we will lose much to a wet harvest which happens every 20 years or so. = Still, farming is a terminal disease, so we keep on. Neil. =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft >=20 Sent: Monday, October 18, 2021 11:07 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Planetary re-drive? =20 He Neil Way to go with the ag drones. Just a pity cant do commercial ops with = Exp. Btw. 2 Ag Thrush's and a C180 damaged on our farm when the hangar = collapsed during a cyclone in April. Bit annoying. Good to see you still developing. I still got my original 20b that will = be looking for an airframe when time allows. Andrew =20 On Sun, 17 Oct. 2021, 5:56 am 12348ung@gmail.com = , > wrote: Marc, I am the only one making redrives at all recently. = Currently teaming up with a partner who has access to all maching gear = to make another version. Why another version? Well it appears that the = ford planetries and g/box parts in the US are now superseded and = difficult to source so the cost goes up. In my search to find an = alternative I am now to get a planetry from the GM automatics as there = are thousands of them in OZ and naturally reasonably priced. The ratio = is approx. 3:1 which is ideal. Planetry sourced, the rest of the redrive is also undergoing a = rethink as to cut cost. Currently just the prop shaft cost $1000 if I = take 10 at a time! Singularly the cost is $1500! Looking at getting one = cast instead of CNC. The housing cost me nearly $1200 for a very = "pretty" CNC job, so again casting is much cheaper. A standard planetry = is mandatory, as to change the ratio again the cost is horrendous. = Whatever is closest to 3:1 will have to do. Input shaft will have to be made as I prefer a sold unit over a "pinned" = unit. Again cost, but necessary. Cushion drive is mainly cast and CNC to finish -- not difficult to set = up for CNC and 10 of will not break the bank. The mounting plate will be cast from Magnesium alloy rather than the 1/2 = inch 6061 alloy plate. Again cost, lightness and strength. The end result? Cannot tell at this stage but without this progression, = there will be no redrives available. The experimental market is no = reason the go into the cost of producing redrives, but the real demand = looming is the Agricultural drone crop spraying market. Here the need = is for high power / weight engines (mazda) and therefore a redrive = (affordable). Much legislation involved, but under the experimental = banner that all alters. This market is huge if a drone that can lift up = to 500 KG can be made. Even 200 KG is marketable which is a single = rotor mazda. The "electric" charge cannot compete I feel with the power = to weight of the Mazda. =20 Looking at a twin rotor helicopter mazda powered. Now that will = get the natives talking! Here in Oz a self propelled crop sprayer is = way over $500,000. Then it cannot spray on boggy ground. Spot spraying = is costly, and timing is critical, so drones will come as lifting = capacity arrives. CASA (aust) and the FAA have many regs regarding = spraying chemical by air, but as demand increases the rules will be = forced to change, I think. Regardless the market is there which will = benefit the experimental aviation sector. Built on farm, used on farm, = even if only to spray plant deficiencies and fungicide , the market is = there. Hopefully it will all happen, but first a redrive. Neil. -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft >=20 Sent: Friday, October 15, 2021 8:22 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Subject: [FlyRotary] Planetary re-drive? Who is making a 13b fit 3:1 planetary now-a-days? That is since I = can=E2=80=99t get a Mistral unit! Need for a 20b.=20 M -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html --=20 Regards Andrew Martin Martin Ag ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01D7C524.1860CA90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Andrew,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 = Thoughts to date,=C2=A0 First check out the Yamaha RMAX drone, a small = drone with many hours behind it but if you thought a self propelled Ag = sprayer was dear????

Definitely a helicopter but looking at up to a 500KG load = (optimistic)=C2=A0=C2=A0 At least 300 KG.=C2=A0=C2=A0 400HP at = least.,

Best is a twin rotor side by side for downdraft for spray = into the crop.=C2=A0 This negates the tail = rotor.

Electric is too heavy and replacement batteries are dearer = than the ag sprayer.=C2=A0 Just straight direct drive simple = mechanical.=C2=A0 Remember cockies have to operate and fix = this!

Looking at 3 blade rotors as cheaper to make and for = transport over rough roads. Know where to get a cast 8 foot blade = already

Turbo 2 rotor with straight clutch drive =E2=80=93 simple = and cheap to replace.=C2=A0 Car diff drive to both rotors and then 90 = degree to each rotor.=C2=A0 Gear drive means rotors can intermesh with = leading blade on the outside for manoeuvrability.=C2=A0 The problem with = a heavy drone is inertia at the end of a run if you have to stay within = your farm boundaries.,=C2=A0 The turbo give the extra power needed and = quietens that rotary scream , so to not notify the neighbours and indeed = the whole district as to what you are up to ----=C2=A0=C2=A0 Night = spraying would also help!!=C2=A0 So far totally forbidden = .

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Many controllers are being already made, = looking at the Canadians to date.

Much more complicated than the = brief above.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Thankfully I am talking to a foundry that can = cast most bits if demand is there =E2=80=93 cost will = dictate.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Full alloy engine also can be cast.=C2=A0 = Thankfully the rotary is relatively simple. Just again money for set up = at foundry

=C2=A0 Then I keep checking my birth certificate and it is = not friendly.

Neil.

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Tuesday, October = 19, 2021 11:02 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Ag = Ops

 

Neil

Ok = lets design it. I reckon we have both been thinking along much the same = lines.

 

You thinking rotary wing, something the size of a R22 = or smaller?

I reckon = vertical mount rotary engine, planetary then differential gearset to = give counter rotating rotor drive. Can all fit in a very compact package = directly above the hopper. 

Planetary should have no fixed gears but connected to = pancake style axial flux motor/generators that form the gearbox housing, = control the output ratio and replace alternaror and starter on the = motor. no clutch is required & engine can be set to run at constant = rpm.

Have also considered = hybrid drive of engine/generator driving counter rotating motors, easier = to build but ends up heavy.

We have already helped development of agopengps, which = we use on our machines for application control, mapping & autosteer. = Its not autonomous just yet, but is open source, farmers helping farmers = is the motto. would just rewrite it into a specific operating system for = this application with 3d maps.

 

I = like the idea of keeping it all open source. That way if anyone uses or = copies then they take responsibility. Plus ideas flow between the = crazies for superfast development.

 

Andrew

 

On = Tue, 19 Oct 2021 at 4:53 am, 12348ung@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Andrew,

          =            Yeah, that = is the current legislation, but with demand that will change =E2=80=93 I = think.  Here in Oz, regardless farmers will disregard the = directives as CASA has not got the resources to police.  Even if = reported, we are simply spraying water!@!!

          =       That damage sounds bad,  have been = called on to fix the fibreglass on the local ag sprayer to keep him in = the air,--- No I must be dreaming, paint covers a lot of = repairs!!!

Currently here any unmanned aircraft must be fully = certified if over 25 KG!!!    That will kill all and = sundry but under experimental??? ---  will be interesting as CASA = fights to keep authority.

     So far great season here and = late with wet cold conditions.  Fear we will lose much to a wet = harvest which happens every 20 years or so.  Still, farming is a = terminal disease, so we keep on.

Neil.

 

From:= Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: = Monday, October 18, 2021 11:07 AM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re: Planetary re-drive?

 <= /o:p>

He = Neil

Way to go = with the ag drones. Just a pity cant do commercial ops with = Exp.

Btw. 2 Ag = Thrush's and a C180 damaged on our farm when the hangar collapsed during = a cyclone in April. Bit annoying.

Good to see = you still developing. I still got my original 20b that will be looking = for an airframe when time allows.

Andrew<= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

On Sun, 17 = Oct. 2021, 5:56 am 12348ung@gmail.com, <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

Marc,
&nb= sp;              I am the only one = making redrives at all recently.  Currently teaming up with a = partner who has access to all maching gear to make another = version.  Why another version?  Well it appears that the ford = planetries and g/box parts in the US are now superseded and difficult to = source so the cost goes up.  In my search to find an alternative I = am now to get a planetry from the GM automatics as there are thousands = of them in OZ and naturally reasonably priced.  The ratio is = approx. 3:1 which is ideal.
        Planetry = sourced, the rest of the redrive is also undergoing a rethink as to cut = cost.  Currently just the prop shaft cost $1000 if I take 10 at a = time! Singularly the cost is $1500! Looking at getting one cast instead = of CNC.  The housing cost me nearly $1200 for a very = "pretty" CNC job, so again casting is much cheaper.  A = standard planetry is mandatory, as to change the ratio again the cost is = horrendous.  Whatever is closest to 3:1 will have to do.
Input = shaft will have to be made as I prefer a sold unit over a = "pinned" unit.  Again cost, but necessary.
Cushion = drive is mainly cast and CNC to finish -- not difficult to set up for = CNC and 10 of will not break the bank.
The mounting plate will be = cast from Magnesium alloy rather than the 1/2 inch 6061 alloy = plate.  Again cost, lightness and strength.

The end result? = Cannot tell at this stage but without this progression, there will be no = redrives available.  The experimental market is no reason the go = into the cost of producing redrives, but the real demand looming is the = Agricultural drone crop spraying market.  Here the need is for high = power / weight engines (mazda) and therefore a redrive = (affordable).  Much legislation involved, but under the = experimental banner that all alters.  This market is huge if a = drone that can lift up to 500 KG can be made.  Even 200 KG is = marketable which is a single rotor mazda.  The "electric" = charge cannot compete I feel with the power to weight of the = Mazda. 
        Looking at a twin rotor = helicopter mazda powered.  Now that will get the natives = talking!  Here in Oz a self propelled crop sprayer is way over = $500,000.  Then it cannot spray on boggy ground.  Spot = spraying is costly, and timing is critical, so drones will come as = lifting capacity arrives.  CASA (aust) and the FAA have many regs = regarding spraying chemical by air, but as demand increases the rules = will be forced to change, I think.  Regardless the market is there = which will benefit the experimental aviation sector.  Built on = farm, used on farm, even if only to spray plant deficiencies and = fungicide , the market is there.
        = Hopefully it will all happen, but first a = redrive.
Neil.

-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary = motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Friday, = October 15, 2021 8:22 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Planetary re-drive?

Who is making a 13b fit 3:1 = planetary now-a-days? That is since I can=E2=80=99t get a Mistral unit! = Need for a 20b.
M

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Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and = UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.h= tml


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<= /div>

--

Regards Andrew Martin Martin = Ag

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