X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=RZTu9Glv c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=OlrVMwvYqn8kuyynXNqZZg==:117 a=nTHF0DUjJn0A:10 a=aOWVIxkx-zkA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=UKPAHat8AAAA:8 a=pjdaNNIBAAAA:8 a=o1OHuDzbAAAA:8 a=vKIbezlLAAAA:20 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=YwG1WVNxlreHWqTmMKIA:9 a=MsxHN6PoZ1z44jVE:21 a=ZUr878AHwIbe8ohl:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=yd7qdsYHy-Gq1j1go6MA:9 a=h0NdfHWaRdDvjL1e:21 a=7EqbIY2O8Eldw9Y9:21 a=9LXbb1WtiFE0K1W6:21 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=Fc6xXSS-RxGHxrvp76Qp:22 a=5YQ6H4ZxyGn-KoBYtt8s:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 From: "Andrew Martin andrew@martinag.com.au" Received: from mail-wm1-f48.google.com ([209.85.128.48] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 405998 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 23 Jun 2020 00:36:07 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.128.48; envelope-from=andrew@martinag.com.au Received: by mail-wm1-f48.google.com with SMTP id g75so1643163wme.5 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 2020 21:36:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=martinag-com-au.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=xOFPZ5eMV4K9kAIuaYLnMVqKzu9kskttEkZAVCJb3eA=; b=fcLkW2oBZrK3JzocX8Fhm4RLDwl/A29Rlft4bAH/l0CwGC6kBHiexqhY2htmosxBaQ O9yyV0VaLhsQuP9liCb13lE0x+ljdnIUqF0DYUO9iw0Q+RW+ctO7GwSItnxPZrZJyJqp OR+2WS9oJP6Unt9Y17gZdckcRxXyC4bWc2OwzssVMITDyXC5Ni+ZhT5inYwmJxoSoP2t Z6YYXn+aiMHL+Eqe4CjCSiMyLg8Xac5SAdeESkiWi6eGsvCIRADy/OiyxdAmrQlWhZh3 UNvvA9j5pQupAqv3joE199tBL9MdfB/30mq+sRoGBJt+jY+4LFeM3s0nSy++zqQ9PTde IC0A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=xOFPZ5eMV4K9kAIuaYLnMVqKzu9kskttEkZAVCJb3eA=; b=ZEIRI4e3Uk2fUzylFZ5aheymZOXJGqbtHC+Xm1H7Hukxq1DrchCfEbBthR2GjS+wub EDU/wSMNDXrBLH0DoE3n9end9Bpp1G15G4yK9Ge2GnTs+ATbxKrtB7PN7p4XrRhUkn/W Ezx9COqH+J5jG6KL+iywuKJb7yYymrSzf58mAzq6APceeJFAGxBMcm6ZCqGhGHThh4fR RheN9NXCAMqZa/hlx3VNDZhZHDAp7IjE3yzMmT6cMUNcpIDN9tu/P9UCsMKb9tUTeXkf ngaXfVbCbSszq/fBH0vmFYnP3PxhDndlee0nXIxR5OIvrMDQNsK6yUpgx6FhEs/Qzmjq khaw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531vxNCbLqeLTYWGClyVNoH8e27ZBAkkH79G37S0EyZ4l2AdM1m6 mKny5x8tK/JAyRRLa5Ffg7F9c8qh9wYLuDicJYJwcdk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxeL1/nrxhHBr85ar11uMBe3YIMvS/jbC8zknA97Fgsh2XUnzOtaQ+SgS+2VY9YKH0cnEXrb46lqzWIMPP5DJU= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:dfd6:: with SMTP id w205mr2895852wmg.118.1592886950531; Mon, 22 Jun 2020 21:35:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2020 12:35:30 +0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: SpeedUino To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000daae5b05a8b8e4b6" --000000000000daae5b05a8b8e4b6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From memory. Only parameter I had to change from Tracy's default was injector flow rate. So I feel a bit lucky about that. I do like larger injectors mainly because it allows full power climb on either pri or sec only if its ever needed. On Tue, 23 Jun. 2020, 8:13 am Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com, < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > Thanks Bobby. > > I=E2=80=99m not concerned over the different sizes, the EC2 mode #6 takes= care of > the math with no worry there. > I was considering the size for idle, yet when I=E2=80=99ve thought about = it, I > like the idle just under 2000rpm and > with the prop load it would be burning a heap more fuel than in a car wit= h > the clutch depressed I would think. > And in the end if she doesn=E2=80=99t idle quite as well, does that matte= r > significantly? > Your matched pairs sounds much more important/significant to me. > > I think I=E2=80=99ll test my spare pair of blues and trial them in the Pr= imaries. > I=E2=80=99d be really interest to see what Steve (Boese) finds re BSFC on= the test > bed when next he has a chance to > run her up. So appreciate your science Steve. > > Steve Izett > > > > > > > > On 23 Jun 2020, at 6:41 am, Bobby J. Hughes bhughes@qnsi.net < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > > > I suspect smaller injectors will be easier to tune. I would use yellow > as primary and blue as secondary. I have always had all four injectors > matched so never had to tune with larger secondary=E2=80=99s. > > > > Bobby > > > > From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] > > Sent: Monday, June 22, 2020 5:02 PM > > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: SpeedUino > > > > Thanks Andrew and Bobby. > > > > If I had a couple of the 420cc Yellow (6 port secondaries) she=E2=80=99= ll have > enough bandwidth for up tp 20=E2=80=9D MAP staged on the Primaries only a= t a max > duty cycle of about 80%. > > I do already have some spare 480/520cc blue (4 port secondaries) that > would mean the primaries would be running at a max duty cycle of about 63= % > > But I read of a tuner who didn=E2=80=99t like the blue injectors. But w= ho knows > why? > > > > Any idea of the difference between using: > > A smaller flow injector at 85% duty cycle Vs > > A larger flow injector at 60% duty cycle. > > > > Pattern & Atomisation? > > As Steve Boese notes:- > > Shorter PW makes the injectors behave as if they became smaller since > the dead time is now a larger fraction of the PW. > > > > > > Steve Izett > > > > > > > > > > > On 22 Jun 2020, at 7:29 pm, Bobby J. Hughes bhughes@qnsi.net < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > > > > > Steve, > > > > > > I believe the Red injectors are around 290cc, yellow are 420cc and > blue are 520cc. This is from memory but in the ball park. The yellow > injectors were used in the six port engines instead of the blue. > > > > > > Bobby > > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > > > >> On Jun 21, 2020, at 11:33 PM, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com = < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > >> > > >> =EF=BB=BFThanks Bobby > > >> > > >> So 4 x yellows is about the same size I believe as the 2 reds and 2 > blues. > > >> Cheers > > >> > > >> Steve > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On 22 Jun 2020, at 6:56 am, Bobby J. Hughes bhughes@qnsi.net < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > >> > > > >> > Steve, > > >> > > > >> > Before selling the RV10 I purchased 4 yellow RX8 Denso injectors. = I > believe they are around 425cc. After default my EC3 required very little > Mode 2/3 adjustment. I was using 540 cc prior to my EC3 needing a softwar= e > patch by Tracy. I decided Tracy had changed my default injector size and > the Yellow injectors worked great and tuned easier than the larger 540cc.= I > don=E2=80=99t think I could tune with saturated injectors. Genuine RX8 De= nso > injectors are not very expensive. Lots of Chinese look-alikes on Amazon a= d > eBay. > > >> > > > >> > Wouldn=E2=80=99t it make sense to have fuel being mixed in that se= condary > runner? I=E2=80=99ve pondered the same thing. > > >> > > > >> > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/OEM-fuel-injector-for-MAZDA-450cc-04-08-for-RX8-= RX7-13B-Miata-yellow-Denso/122405560405?epid=3D1778067132&hash=3Ditem1c7ff0= a055:g:YFcAAOSwcl1c8Kyh > > >> > > > >> > Bobby > > >> > > > >> > From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.ne= t] > > > >> > Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2020 10:39 AM > > >> > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > > >> > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: SpeedUino > > >> > > > >> > Hi Steve Boese or other cleverer people than I. > > >> > > > >> > Can you explain or point me to info regarding intake port and > injector staging. > > >> > In the Renesis engines as an example, the various ports have valve= s > (excepting the primaries) and injectors. > > >> > Mazda seems to have done magic to create an intake system that > supports a usable torque curve over a significant range. > > >> > Now I take it that it would be a mistake to turn on injectors whil= e > that port was closed. > > >> > But do they open a port, lets say the secondaries in a 4 port > rotary but not switch on the injectors? > > >> > Now that=E2=80=99s what we are doing with our EC=E2=80=99s, Tracy = has them on > Primaries all the way up to 20=E2=80=9D MAP before the secondary injector= s turn on. > > >> > So because most of us have removed any valve (open all the time as > we=E2=80=99re not interested in low rpm) we have a Primary runner with fu= el being > mixed, > > >> > but a Secondary runner without fuel being mixed. > > >> > So during the intake =E2=80=9Cstroke/rotational movement=E2=80=9D = the two masses of > air from either side of the rotor, through seperate ports must mix to > ideally create an even air/fuel mixture. > > >> > Wouldn=E2=80=99t it make sense to have fuel being mixed in that se= condary > runner? > > >> > > > >> > It seems to me that smaller capacity injectors may provide better > atomisation for lower end engine performance/economy/emissions, > particularly when only the primary runners were active. > > >> > > > >> > I=E2=80=99m also still wondering, should I consider replacing the = small > Primary Injectors that have saturated at times with larger injectors maki= ng > 4 equal injectors? > > >> > > > >> > Thanks for all the help. > > >> > > > >> > Steve Izett > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > On 19 Jun 2020, at 11:10 am, Steven W. Boese SBoese@uwyo.edu < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > >> > > > > >> > > I have a SpeedUino running a 13B test engine. That system is > already set up with a throttle body position input which is not used in t= he > recent version I have. A few code changes allows a potentiometer to be us= ed > through that input for manual mixture control. I also found it not > particularly difficult to come up with a dual wheel CAS file to be used > with the Ardustim signal generator to simulate the 13B CAS for testing. > > >> > > > > >> > > Steve Boese > > >> > > > > >> > > On Jun 18, 2020, at 6:36 PM, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net > wrote: > > >> > > > > >> > >> =E2=97=86 This message was sent from a non-UWYO address. Please= exercise > caution when clicking links or opening attachments from external sources. > > >> > >> > > >> > >> Actually Tracy now recommends the SpeedUino boards and using > TunerStudio (there is a free version) as the modern solution. > > >> > >> Yes, you'll have to do a bit of work if you want redundancy and > manual mixture control. > > >> > >> I see them on eBay for about $150 each. Add relays to switch > between the outputs of the boards for redundancy. > > >> > >> A bit of cooperative work on the open source SpeedUino code and > you could have manual mixture control, if not already done by now. > > >> > >> So it doesn't really doesn't have to be all that expensive. > Maybe $400 for the hardware. Naturally, if you want an of-the-shelf > solution and expect hand holding and support, you most likely have to pay > for it. > > >> > >> > > >> > >> So why did I chose a RWS EC3 for the RV-4 I'm building in spite > of Tracy's recommendation? > > >> > >> The RV-3B I bought and have been flying has RWS EC2 and EM2, so > I'm familiar with the operation of it. > > >> > >> And I guess I was too lazy to get into SpeedUino and learn that= . > Just seemed easier to install an EC3 and go fly. Would have worked too, i= f > I hadn't listened to the warnings about using the stock Renesis ignition > coils and gone and bought LS2 coils (D585). Also in the back of my mind w= as > the track record of Tracy's controllers. I never really had a problem wit= h > them. In my mind they were reliable and proven. I guess one tends towards > what one is familiar with. I should say that I still kind of enjoy > tinkering with software and hardware. There is a certain satisfaction in > overcoming obstacles and making things work, although it can bevery time > consuming. > > >> > >> > > >> > >> I think we can draw a parallel to the mindset it takes to make > your engine installation from scratch and just install a Lycoming. > > >> > >> > > >> > >> So, with the data I now have, I think I would recommend what > Tracy recommends for any new installations and only get spares for workin= g > EC2/3 installations. If I understand it right, there is wide support for > SpeedUino out there. > > >> > >> > > >> > >> Finn > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> On 6/18/2020 6:06 PM, 12348ung@gmail.com wrote: > > >> > >>> Re Tracy ECM. > > >> > >>> I note all the grief that is going back and forward and > sympathise with you all. I had trouble with mine way back, sent it back t= o > Tracy and it took 3 months before I saw it again. Decided then that this > was not a good way to go as Tracy was semi retired then already. Tracy to > me was absolutely brilliant in what he did, but that was 40 years ago?? S= o > I bought a fueltech unit which is current technology but very dear compar= ed > to Tracy=E2=80=99s ECM. I have not regretted this purchase. The engine lo= g can be > emailed for support and within 24 hours you are fixed up. Then I am total= ly > computer illiterate, so unable to fix anything like that myself, so I pay > as usual. > > >> > >>> Neil. > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> From: Rotary motors in aircraft > > >> > >>> Sent: Friday, June 19, 2020 2:10 AM > > >> > >>> To: Rotary motors in aircraft > > >> > >>> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: EC3 software for Renesis RX-8/LS2 > coils fixed and uploaded > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> Hi Bobby, > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> Actually Tracy does have a few new EC3 boards. I didn't ask ho= w > many. > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> The hot question really is how big is the demand (quantity)? > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> I probably have enough data from him (schematics, parts lists, > PCB layout) to get a production run done. > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> Tracy is serious about having retired. I was really, really > lucky to get his help. > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> I think a big reason for his decision to retire is to have tim= e > to enjoy life. I think the majority of his time before his retirement was > spent on support (phone, emails). > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> He really has no economic incentive to come out of retirement. > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> So while we could get a production run done, I doubt anyone > would be willing to spend time on support -- certainly not for new > installations. Also the variety of engines, accessories and specialized > programming for some installations would make it a nightmare to program t= he > chips. Solution for that would probably be to read the working chips for > your installation and then program the new chips with that, but then some > would not get the latest features (closed loop, auto program using EC3 w/= o > EM). > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> I thought I might take it on, but having second thoughts :) > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> Will probably be a few days before I'm ready to roll the > fuselage out of the hangar and do engine runs. > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> Finn > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> On 6/18/2020 10:18 AM, Bobby J. Hughes bhughes@qnsi.net wrote: > > >> > >>> Thanks Finn. I downloaded the files and notes. Once you are > confident the hardware and software works properly we might consider a > onetime production run of EC3=E2=80=99s for existing EC2/3 owners. I woul= d like to > have a tested spare available. It would likely take Tracy=E2=80=99s invol= vement to > facilitate the board build or at least provided the suppler information a= nd > proper Rev number. > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> I really appreciate the work you, Steve Izett and Steve B. are > doing. > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> Bobby > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto: > flyrotary@lancaironline.net] > > >> > >>> Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2020 6:11 PM > > >> > >>> To: Rotary motors in aircraft > > >> > >>> Subject: [FlyRotary] EC3 software for Renesis RX-8/LS2 coils > fixed and uploaded > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> Here it is: > > >> > >>> > https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1mVzPOxUwcGUlPizxnRF40nUyKBzfT4DC?= usp=3Dsharing > > >> > >>> It's EC3closedloop.zip. > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> You may want to grab it now in case Google decides to close my > account :) > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> You can program the 18F452 chips directly using the EC3CL8.HEX > file, or open EC3ClosedLoop.mcp in MPLAB IDE, compile and program. This i= s > for RX-8 (EC3 engine type A8), LS2 coils (D585), large secondary injector= s, > default is wide band O2 sensor. > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> Turns out Tracy has never programmed or delivered an EC3 for > Renesis with LS2 coils. > > >> > >>> Software was missing code to load LS2 coils dwell time. > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> I added Steve's code for configuration bits so don't have to > remember what to set them to when programming. > > >> > >>> I set all protection bits to zero to avoid any chip > reprogramming troubles, but you could change to: > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> ; CONFIG6L > > >> > >>> CONFIG WRT0 =3D ON ; Write Protection bit (Block 0 > (000200-001FFFh) write protected) > > >> > >>> Finn > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> ENG EQU 0xA8 ;PUT ENGINE TYPE CODE HERE AND CHECK **** ALL ***= * > FLAGS BELOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> N109TC EQU 0x00 ;N109TC USES A DIFFERENT assignment of coil > drivers CLEAR for ALL except N109TC !!!!! and KERMIT unit 20B controllers > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> DIAG EQU 0x00 ;DIAG =3D=3D1 ALLOWS DIAGNOSTIC USE OF 02H&L > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> ; ***************** CHECK ALL FLAGS BEFORE PROGRAM MING CHIPS > !!!!! ************************************************** > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> ; *************** DWELL TIME FLAGS *SET ONLY ONE* > *********************************************** > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> RX8COIL EQU 0x00 ;1=3D 2.6MS DWELL TIME (RX-8 COIL) > > >> > >>> RX7COIL EQU 0x00 ;1=3D 3.5MS DWELL TIME USED (also used for A7 > 2007 option) > > >> > >>> LS1COIL EQU 0x00 ;1=3D 4.3 MS DWELL USED > > >> > >>> HONDACOIL EQU 0x00 ;1=3D 1.7 MS DWELL (A REALLY TINY COIL) > > >> > >>> LS2COIL EQU 0x01 ;1=3D 4.0 MS DWELL > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> TURBO EQU 0x00 ;0 =3D NA, 1 =3D TURBO VERSION (BIT 0 SET IN EC= INFO > IF TRUE) > > >> > >>> BFACTOR EQU D'20' ;BOOST RETARD FOR IGNITION TIMING lower valu= e > =3D more boost retard (25 IS USED FOR MOST ROTARY 20 on 03-05-09, > > >> > >>> LGSEC EQU 0x01 ;0 =3D PRI & SEC INJECTORS SAME SIZE 1 =3D LARG= ER > SECONDARY INJECTORS (RENESIS 4 port) > > >> > >>> WIDEBAND EQU 0x01 ;0 =3D NARROWBAND O2 SENSOR IN USE, 1 =3D > WIDEBAND SENSOR IN USE. > > >> > >>> TEMPSENSOR EQU 0x00 ;0 =3D THERMISTOR, 1 =3D LM34 > > >> > >>> MAPSENSOR EQU 0x00 ;0 =3D MPX4250 SENSOR, 1 =3D MPX4115 (EARLI= ER > VERSION OF EC2 ONLY) > > >> > >>> BUSENSOR EQU 0x00 ;0 =3D NO BACKUP SENSOR, 1 =3D BACKUP INSTAL= LED > (0xA8,0xA9,AB,AD,B1,B2,B4 0-200 ENGINE ONLY) > > >> > >>> BREW EQU 0x00 ;0 =3D SET TO 1 FOR 3RD GEN 13BREW ENGINES : > COMPENSATES FOR 5 DEG EARLIER 3RD GEN TIMING OF CAS > > >> > >>> ONEINJ EQU 0x00 ;0 =3D NORMAL 2 INJECTOR PER ROTOR 1 =3D 1 INJ= PER > ROTOR (NOT RECOMMENDED) > > >> > >>> CONT EQU 0x00 ;0 =3D NORMAL 0xA9 ENGINE, 1 =3D CONTINENTAL/Lyc > VARIENT (also sets bu at 18 geg before primary) > > >> > >>> EMT EQU 0x00 ;0 =3D A9 W/ TRIG @ 6 DEG ATDC 1 =3D TDC @ TOOTH = 11 > (ELECTROMOTIVE TIMING SPEC) also sets BU at 180 deg > > >> > >>> A72007 EQU 0x00 ;0 =3D PRE 2005 SUBE EJ25 1 =3D 2005 OR LATER = EJ25 > W/ RX-8 TYPE CAS > > >> > >>> WTF EQU 0x00 ;0 =3D normal version 1 =3D BRAT - AKA - WhatTheF= uck > project version with transmission control functions > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> TBINJ EQU 0x00 ;1=3D THROTTLE BODY INJECTION FLAG > > >> > >>> LS2_60_2 EQU 0x00 ;1=3D LS2 ENGINE EQUIPPED W/60-2 TOOTH TRIGG= ER > WHEEL (USE ENG CODE 0xAB) > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> Disclaimer > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> The information contained in this communication from the sende= r > is confidential. 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From memory. Only parameter I had to change from Tracy= 9;s default was injector flow rate. So I feel a bit lucky about that. I do = like larger injectors mainly because it allows full power climb on either p= ri or sec only if its ever needed.

On Tue, 23 Jun. 2020, 8:13 am Stephen Ize= tt stephen.izett@gmail.com, = <flyrotary@lancaironline.= net> wrote:
Thanks Bobby.
I=E2=80=99m not concerned over the different sizes, the EC2 mode #6 takes c= are of the math with no worry there.
I was considering the size for idle, yet when I=E2=80=99ve thought about it= , I like the idle just under 2000rpm and
with the prop load it would be burning a heap more fuel than in a car with = the clutch depressed I would think.
And in the end if she doesn=E2=80=99t idle quite as well, does that matter = significantly?
Your matched pairs sounds much more important/significant to me.

I think I=E2=80=99ll test my spare pair of blues and trial them in the Prim= aries.
I=E2=80=99d be really interest to see what Steve (Boese) finds re BSFC on t= he test bed when next he has a chance to
run her up. So appreciate your science Steve.

Steve Izett






> On 23 Jun 2020, at 6:41 am, Bobby J. Hughes bhughes@qnsi.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
>
> I suspect smaller injectors will be easier to tune. I would use yellow= as primary and blue as secondary. I have always had all four injectors mat= ched so never had to tune with larger secondary=E2=80=99s.
>=C2=A0
> Bobby
>=C2=A0
> From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironli= ne.net]
> Sent: Monday, June 22, 2020 5:02 PM
> To: Rotary motors in aircraft
> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: SpeedUino
>=C2=A0
> Thanks Andrew and Bobby.
>
> If I had a couple of the 420cc Yellow (6 port secondaries) she=E2=80= =99ll have enough bandwidth for up tp 20=E2=80=9D MAP staged on the Primari= es only at a max duty cycle of about 80%.
> I do already have some spare 480/520cc blue (4 port secondaries) that = would mean the primaries would be running at a max duty cycle of about 63%<= br> > But I read of a tuner who didn=E2=80=99t like the blue injectors. But = who knows why?
>
> Any idea of the difference between using:
> A smaller flow injector at 85% duty cycle Vs
> A larger flow injector at 60% duty cycle.
>
> Pattern & Atomisation?
> As Steve Boese notes:-
> Shorter PW makes the injectors behave as if they became smaller since = the dead time is now a larger fraction of the PW.
>
>
> Steve Izett
>
>
>
>
> > On 22 Jun 2020, at 7:29 pm, Bobby J. Hughes bhughes@qnsi.net &l= t;flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
> >
> > Steve,
> >
> > I believe the Red injectors are around 290cc, yellow are 420cc an= d blue are 520cc. This is from memory but in the ball park. The yellow inje= ctors were used in the six port engines instead of the blue.
> >
> > Bobby
> >
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> >> On Jun 21, 2020, at 11:33 PM, Stephen Izett stephen.izet= t@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > >>
> >> =EF=BB=BFThanks Bobby
> >>
> >> So 4 x yellows is about the same size I believe as the 2 reds= and 2 blues.
> >> Cheers
> >>
> >> Steve
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> > On 22 Jun 2020, at 6:56 am, Bobby J. Hughes bhughes@qnsi.n= et <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Steve,
> >> >
> >> > Before selling the RV10 I purchased 4 yellow RX8 Denso i= njectors. I believe they are around 425cc. After default my EC3 required ve= ry little Mode 2/3 adjustment. I was using 540 cc prior to my EC3 needing a= software patch by Tracy. I decided Tracy had changed my default injector s= ize and the Yellow injectors worked great and tuned easier than the larger = 540cc. I don=E2=80=99t think I could tune with saturated injectors. Genuine= RX8 Denso injectors are not very expensive. Lots of Chinese look-alikes on= Amazon ad eBay.
> >> >
> >> > Wouldn=E2=80=99t it make sense to have fuel being mixed = in that secondary runner? I=E2=80=99ve pondered the same thing.
> >> >
> >> > https://www.ebay.com/itm/OEM-fuel-injector-fo= r-MAZDA-450cc-04-08-for-RX8-RX7-13B-Miata-yellow-Denso/122405560405?epid=3D= 1778067132&hash=3Ditem1c7ff0a055:g:YFcAAOSwcl1c8Kyh
> >> >
> >> > Bobby
> >> >
> >> > From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrota= ry@lancaironline.net]
> >> > Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2020 10:39 AM
> >> > To: Rotary motors in aircraft
> >> > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: SpeedUino
> >> >
> >> > Hi Steve Boese or other cleverer people than I.
> >> >
> >> > Can you explain or point me to info regarding intake por= t and injector staging.
> >> > In the Renesis engines as an example, the various ports = have valves (excepting the primaries) and injectors.
> >> > Mazda seems to have done magic to create an intake syste= m that supports a usable torque curve over a significant range.
> >> > Now I take it that it would be a mistake to turn on inje= ctors while that port was closed.
> >> > But do they open a port, lets say the secondaries in a 4= port rotary but not switch on the injectors?
> >> > Now that=E2=80=99s what we are doing with our EC=E2=80= =99s, Tracy has them on Primaries all the way up to 20=E2=80=9D MAP before = the secondary injectors turn on.
> >> > So because most of us have removed any valve (open all t= he time as we=E2=80=99re not interested in low rpm) we have a Primary runne= r with fuel being mixed,
> >> > but a Secondary runner without fuel being mixed.
> >> > So during the intake =E2=80=9Cstroke/rotational movement= =E2=80=9D the two masses of air from either side of the rotor, through sepe= rate ports must mix to ideally create an even air/fuel mixture.
> >> > Wouldn=E2=80=99t it make sense to have fuel being mixed = in that secondary runner?
> >> >
> >> > It seems to me that smaller capacity injectors may provi= de better atomisation for lower end engine performance/economy/emissions, p= articularly when only the primary runners were active.
> >> >
> >> > I=E2=80=99m also still wondering, should I consider repl= acing the small Primary Injectors that have saturated at times with larger = injectors making 4 equal injectors?
> >> >
> >> > Thanks for all the help.
> >> >
> >> > Steve Izett
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > > On 19 Jun 2020, at 11:10 am, Steven W. Boese SBoese@uw= yo.edu <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > I have a SpeedUino running a 13B test engine. That = system is already set up with a throttle body position input which is not u= sed in the recent version I have. A few code changes allows a potentiometer= to be used through that input for manual mixture control. I also found it = not particularly difficult to come up with a dual wheel CAS file to be used= with the Ardustim signal generator to simulate the 13B CAS for testing. > >> > >
> >> > > Steve Boese
> >> > >
> >> > > On Jun 18, 2020, at 6:36 PM, Finn Lassen finn.= lassen@verizon.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wro= te:
> >> > >
> >> > >> =E2=97=86 This message was sent from a non-UWYO= address. Please exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachment= s from external sources.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Actually Tracy now recommends the SpeedUino boa= rds and using TunerStudio (there is a free version) as the modern solution.=
> >> > >> Yes, you'll have to do a bit of work if you= want redundancy and manual mixture control.
> >> > >> I see them on eBay for about $150 each. Add rel= ays to switch between the outputs of the boards for redundancy.
> >> > >> A bit of cooperative work on the open source Sp= eedUino code and you could have manual mixture control, if not already done= by now.
> >> > >> So it doesn't really doesn't have to be= all that expensive. Maybe $400 for the hardware. Naturally, if you want an= of-the-shelf solution and expect hand holding and support, you most likely= have to pay for it.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> So why did I chose a RWS EC3 for the RV-4 I'= ;m building in spite of Tracy's recommendation?
> >> > >> The RV-3B I bought and have been flying has RWS= EC2 and EM2, so I'm familiar with the operation of it.
> >> > >> And I guess I was too lazy to get into SpeedUin= o and learn that. Just seemed easier to install an EC3 and go fly. Would ha= ve worked too, if I hadn't listened to the warnings about using the sto= ck Renesis ignition coils and gone and bought LS2 coils (D585). Also in the= back of my mind was the track record of Tracy's controllers. I never r= eally had a problem with them. In my mind they were reliable and proven. I = guess one tends towards what one is familiar with. I should say that I stil= l kind of enjoy tinkering with software and hardware. There is a certain sa= tisfaction in overcoming obstacles and making things work, although it can = bevery time consuming.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> I think we can draw a parallel to the mindset i= t takes to make your engine installation from scratch and just install a Ly= coming.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> So, with the data I now have, I think I would r= ecommend what Tracy recommends for any new installations and only get spare= s for working EC2/3 installations. If I understand it right, there is wide = support for SpeedUino out there.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Finn
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >> On 6/18/2020 6:06 PM, 12348ung@gmail.com wr= ote:
> >> > >>> Re Tracy ECM.
> >> > >>> I note all the grief that is going back and= forward and sympathise with you all. I had trouble with mine way back, sen= t it back to Tracy and it took 3 months before I saw it again. Decided then= that this was not a good way to go as Tracy was semi retired then already.= Tracy to me was absolutely brilliant in what he did, but that was 40 years= ago?? So I bought a fueltech unit which is current technology but very dea= r compared to Tracy=E2=80=99s ECM. I have not regretted this purchase. The = engine log can be emailed for support and within 24 hours you are fixed up.= Then I am totally computer illiterate, so unable to fix anything like that= myself, so I pay as usual.
> >> > >>> Neil.
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> From: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
> >> > >>> Sent: Friday, June 19, 2020 2:10 AM
> >> > >>> To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
> >> > >>> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: EC3 software for R= enesis RX-8/LS2 coils fixed and uploaded
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> Hi Bobby,
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> Actually Tracy does have a few new EC3 boar= ds. I didn't ask how many.
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> The hot question really is how big is the d= emand (quantity)?
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> I probably have enough data from him (schem= atics, parts lists, PCB layout) to get a production run done.
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> Tracy is serious about having retired. I wa= s really, really lucky to get his help.
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> I think a big reason for his decision to re= tire is to have time to enjoy life. I think the majority of his time before= his retirement was spent on support (phone, emails).
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> He really has no economic incentive to come= out of retirement.
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> So while we could get a production run done= , I doubt anyone would be willing to spend time on support -- certainly not= for new installations. Also the variety of engines, accessories and specia= lized programming for some installations would make it a nightmare to progr= am the chips. Solution for that would probably be to read the working chips= for your installation and then program the new chips with that, but then s= ome would not get the latest features (closed loop, auto program using EC3 = w/o EM).
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> I thought I might take it on, but having se= cond thoughts :)
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> Will probably be a few days before I'm = ready to roll the fuselage out of the hangar and do engine runs.
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> Finn
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> On 6/18/2020 10:18 AM, Bobby J. Hughes bhughe= s@qnsi.net wrote:
> >> > >>> Thanks Finn. I downloaded the files and not= es. Once you are confident the hardware and software works properly we migh= t consider a onetime production run of EC3=E2=80=99s for existing EC2/3 own= ers. I would like to have a tested spare available. It would likely take Tr= acy=E2=80=99s involvement to facilitate the board build or at least provide= d the suppler information and proper Rev number.
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> I really appreciate the work you, Steve Ize= tt and Steve B. are doing.
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> Bobby
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]
> >> > >>> Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2020 6:11 PM
> >> > >>> To: Rotary motors in aircraft
> >> > >>> Subject: [FlyRotary] EC3 software for Renes= is RX-8/LS2 coils fixed and uploaded
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> Here it is:
> >> > >>> https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1mVzPOx= UwcGUlPizxnRF40nUyKBzfT4DC?usp=3Dsharing
> >> > >>> It's EC3closedloop.zip.
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> You may want to grab it now in case Google = decides to close my account :)
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> You can program the 18F452 chips directly u= sing the EC3CL8.HEX file, or open EC3ClosedLoop.mcp in MPLAB IDE, compile a= nd program. This is for RX-8 (EC3 engine type A8), LS2 coils (D585), large = secondary injectors, default is wide band O2 sensor.
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> Turns out Tracy has never programmed or del= ivered an EC3 for Renesis with LS2 coils.
> >> > >>> Software was missing code to load LS2 coils= dwell time.
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> I added Steve's code for configuration = bits so don't have to remember what to set them to when programming. > >> > >>> I set all protection bits to zero to avoid = any chip reprogramming troubles, but you could change to:
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> ; CONFIG6L
> >> > >>> CONFIG WRT0 =3D ON ; Write Protection bit (= Block 0 (000200-001FFFh) write protected)
> >> > >>> Finn
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> ENG EQU 0xA8 ;PUT ENGINE TYPE CODE HERE AND= CHECK **** ALL **** FLAGS BELOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> N109TC EQU 0x00 ;N109TC USES A DIFFERENT as= signment of coil drivers CLEAR for ALL except N109TC !!!!! and KERMIT unit = 20B controllers
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> DIAG EQU 0x00 ;DIAG =3D=3D1 ALLOWS DIAGNOST= IC USE OF 02H&L
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> ; ***************** CHECK ALL FLAGS BEFORE = PROGRAM MING CHIPS !!!!! **************************************************=
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> ; *************** DWELL TIME FLAGS *SET ONL= Y ONE* ***********************************************
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> RX8COIL EQU 0x00 ;1=3D 2.6MS DWELL TIME (RX= -8 COIL)
> >> > >>> RX7COIL EQU 0x00 ;1=3D 3.5MS DWELL TIME USE= D (also used for A7 2007 option)
> >> > >>> LS1COIL EQU 0x00 ;1=3D 4.3 MS DWELL USED > >> > >>> HONDACOIL EQU 0x00 ;1=3D 1.7 MS DWELL (A RE= ALLY TINY COIL)
> >> > >>> LS2COIL EQU 0x01 ;1=3D 4.0 MS DWELL
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> TURBO EQU 0x00 ;0 =3D NA, 1 =3D TURBO VERSI= ON (BIT 0 SET IN ECINFO IF TRUE)
> >> > >>> BFACTOR EQU D'20' ;BOOST RETARD FOR= IGNITION TIMING lower value =3D more boost retard (25 IS USED FOR MOST ROT= ARY 20 on 03-05-09,
> >> > >>> LGSEC EQU 0x01 ;0 =3D PRI & SEC INJECTO= RS SAME SIZE 1 =3D LARGER SECONDARY INJECTORS (RENESIS 4 port)
> >> > >>> WIDEBAND EQU 0x01 ;0 =3D NARROWBAND O2 SENS= OR IN USE, 1 =3D WIDEBAND SENSOR IN USE.
> >> > >>> TEMPSENSOR EQU 0x00 ;0 =3D THERMISTOR, 1 = =3D LM34
> >> > >>> MAPSENSOR EQU 0x00 ;0 =3D MPX4250 SENSOR, 1= =3D MPX4115 (EARLIER VERSION OF EC2 ONLY)
> >> > >>> BUSENSOR EQU 0x00 ;0 =3D NO BACKUP SENSOR, = 1 =3D BACKUP INSTALLED (0xA8,0xA9,AB,AD,B1,B2,B4 0-200 ENGINE ONLY)
> >> > >>> BREW EQU 0x00 ;0 =3D SET TO 1 FOR 3RD GEN 1= 3BREW ENGINES : COMPENSATES FOR 5 DEG EARLIER 3RD GEN TIMING OF CAS
> >> > >>> ONEINJ EQU 0x00 ;0 =3D NORMAL 2 INJECTOR PE= R ROTOR 1 =3D 1 INJ PER ROTOR (NOT RECOMMENDED)
> >> > >>> CONT EQU 0x00 ;0 =3D NORMAL 0xA9 ENGINE, 1 = =3D CONTINENTAL/Lyc VARIENT (also sets bu at 18 geg before primary)
> >> > >>> EMT EQU 0x00 ;0 =3D A9 W/ TRIG @ 6 DEG ATDC= 1 =3D TDC @ TOOTH 11 (ELECTROMOTIVE TIMING SPEC) also sets BU at 180 deg > >> > >>> A72007 EQU 0x00 ;0 =3D PRE 2005 SUBE EJ25 1= =3D 2005 OR LATER EJ25 W/ RX-8 TYPE CAS
> >> > >>> WTF EQU 0x00 ;0 =3D normal version 1 =3D BR= AT - AKA - WhatTheFuck project version with transmission control functions =
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> TBINJ EQU 0x00 ;1=3D THROTTLE BODY INJECTIO= N FLAG
> >> > >>> LS2_60_2 EQU 0x00 ;1=3D LS2 ENGINE EQUIPPED= W/60-2 TOOTH TRIGGER WHEEL (USE ENG CODE 0xAB)
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> Disclaimer
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> The information contained in this communica= tion from the sender is confidential. It is intended solely for use by the = recipient and others authorized to receive it. If you are not the recipient= , you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or tak= ing action in relation of the contents of this information is strictly proh= ibited and may be unlawful.
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> This email has been scanned for viruses and= malware, and may have been automatically archived by Mimecast Ltd, an inno= vator in Software as a Service (SaaS) for business. Providing a safer and m= ore useful place for your human generated data. Specializing in; Security, = archiving and compliance. To find out more Click Here.
> >> > >>>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/
> >> > Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/
> >> Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
>
>
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