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Message-ID: <5ab3c6cb.957a810a.4ae3b.7a7c@mx.google.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Glasair Testing
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2018 11:07:53 -0400
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Yep, That=E2=80=99s the one (with 30 rows).
Tracy
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
From: Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2018 9:34 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Glasair Testing
Hit send too soon. CX Racing has multiple sizes on their web site.
https://www.cxracing.com/oil-cooler-kit/oil-cooler-kit-oil-cooler
On 3/19/2018 8:29 AM, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com wrote:
Is this it?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/CXRacing-Hi-Performance-Transmission-Engine-Univer=
sal-Aluminum-Oil-Cooler-30-Row/160578859562?epid=3D657213596&hash=3Ditem256=
33ef22a:g:IucAAOxy63FSwRSv
Charlie
On 3/19/2018 7:39 AM, Tracy Crook rwstracy@gmail.com wrote:
Good memory Steve. =C2=A0My RV8 inlets are round, 6=E2=80=9D for water, 5=
=E2=80=9D for oil cooler.=C2=A0 Oil cooler is a =E2=80=9C30 row cooler=E2=
=80=9D found on-line.=C2=A0 Can=E2=80=99t remember make.=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99s=
about 10 x 11 x 2=C2=A0 but with very closely spaced fins so more fin area=
than the similar core volume on the stock Mazda cooler.
=C2=A0
The inlets on the RV4 are so irregular (the right side is especially ugly :=
) that area is unknown.
=C2=A0
Tracy=20
=C2=A0
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
=C2=A0
From: Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com
Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2018 2:54 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Glasair Testing
=C2=A0
Tracy
Thats what I thought. Our rad should with good airflow easily cool 200hp.
I thought I remembered the Otter with a standard mazda oil cooler and the R=
V8 20b with a bigger aftermarket oil cooler.
Can you provide inlet areas of the RV4 & 8?
=C2=A0
Thanks again
=C2=A0
Steve Izett
> On 18 Mar 2018, at 9:53 am, Tracy Crook rwstracy@gmail.com wrote:
>=20
> Was thinking of the RV-4 but now that you ask, the rad size was from RV-8=
.=C2=A0 The oil cooler was the RV-4.=C2=A0 I used two 10 x 9 x 4 evaporator=
cores for rad on the 4.
>=20
> Tracy
>=20
> Sent from my iPad
>=20
>> On Mar 17, 2018, at 20:13, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com wrote:
>>=20
>> Tracy
>> When you say the rad and oil cooler are the same size as yours, were you=
referring to the RV 4 or 8?
>> Steve
>>=20
>>> On 18 Mar 2018, at 8:08 am, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Thanks Tracy.=20
>>> Much appreciated.
>>>=20
>>> Steve
>>>> On 18 Mar 2018, at 7:48 am, Tracy Crook rwstracy@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> The rad is the same size as mine so should be OK, oil cooler about the=
same as mine too.=C2=A0 Success depends as much on volume through them as =
size though.=C2=A0 I can=E2=80=99t guess on the inlet size since your airsp=
eed will be higher than mine.=C2=A0 In my experience cooling on ground had =
very little bearing on how it works in flight.=C2=A0=20
>>>>=20
>>>> When you are committed to first flight, don=E2=80=99t wait for full oi=
l & water temps,=C2=A0 start takeoff run as soon as min. temps reached if p=
ossible.=C2=A0=C2=A0 I use 120 F. as min.=C2=A0 That will give best chance =
to make it around the pattern for quick landing before overheating if cooli=
ng is not good enough.=C2=A0 I did many one circuit flights in the early da=
ys : )
>>>>=20
>>>> Tracy
>>>>=20
>>>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>>>>=20
>>>> From: Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com
>>>> Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2018 7:13 PM
>>>> To: Rotary motors in aircraft
>>>> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Glasair Testing
>>>>=20
>>>> Hi Tracy.=20
>>>>=20
>>>> When you said you agree with Todd, was this in relation to the oil coo=
ler appearing to be on the small side?
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Any other observation re temps etc?=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Water Cooler - 13x17.7x2.35 giving 541in3 fed by 20in2 right cheek whi=
ch gets very little air from the prop.
>>>>=20
>>>> Oil Cooler - turbo rx7 11x8.75x2 giving 193in3 fed by 7.4in2 inlet 12=
=E2=80=9D below spinner, which gets better prop blast.
>>>>=20
>>>> See photo for inlets (left cheek feeds air filter and cooling of coils=
only. Right cheek is mirror image)
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Thanks again for your gearbox, controllers and knowledge base over the=
years.
>>>>=20
>>>> Very much appreciated.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Steve Izett
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> On 18 Mar 2018, at 4:03 am, Tracy Crook rwstracy@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> Hi Steve,
>>>> I agree with Todd=E2=80=99s comments.=C2=A0 The EM2/3 will not give re=
liable airspeed readings below around 20 MPH due to the limitations of the =
sensor used and resolution of the ADC in the EM3.
>>>>=20
>>>> Glad to see the progress!
>>>>=20
>>>> Tracy
>>>>=20
>>>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>>>>=20
>>>> From: Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com
>>>> Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2018 5:35 AM
>>>> To: Rotary motors in aircraft
>>>> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Glasair Testing
>>>>=20
>>>> Hi guys
>>>>=20
>>>> I repotted the graph using gps ground speed (there was no breeze that =
day) as it shows the lower speed taxing where the airspeed indicator doesn=
=E2=80=99t down low.
>>>>=20
>>>> Cheers
>>>>=20
>>>> Steve Izett
>>>> <69C652B733844F5DB5ECD4A530438876.jpg>
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> On 17 Mar 2018, at 5:28 pm, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> HI Todd
>>>> Thanks for the feedback. And yes the manifold pressure does make sense=
, I was upside down expecting a lower manifold pressure at WOT. Doh!
>>>> I=E2=80=99m colourblind and cant differentiate between some of those c=
olours so was getting confused.=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Yes that Cri Cri is an interesting and tiny machine.
>>>> Dawie and Sarki are great guys with heaps of experience and have been =
so very helpful.
>>>> They bring it out every time we have an open day at our club. The crow=
ds love it.
>>>>=20
>>>> On another note I=E2=80=99m very interested in the possibility of turb=
oing the renesis in the future if all else goes well.
>>>> What turbo are you using, what level of boost do you use and what hp d=
o you think this is creating?
>>>>=20
>>>> Thanks again
>>>>=20
>>>> Steve Izett
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> On 17 Mar 2018, at 4:29 pm, Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> Hi Steve;
>>>> The manifold looks like exactly what I would expect to match your RPM,=
so no worries there. The temps don't look too bad to me. Possibly your oil=
cooling might be little low as it begins to increase rapidly when you add =
power and during an extended climb-out you may see that get a little hotter=
than you like, but it looks like it stabilizes quickly when you reduce the=
power.
>>>> If everything else is performing well (fuel, electrical) then I don't =
see why it's not time to see how it cools in the air. That's a quick plane =
so my guess is that if you have enough ground cooling for indefinate ground=
operation, you may find excess cooling (and drag) in the air.
>>>>=20
>>>> But the real reason I'm responding right now is not rotary related....=
=C2=A0 A JET POWERED CRI CRI???? Holy s**t, what will they do next! So I fo=
und the YouTube video of it (VH-ZSE right?) That's pretty cool!
>>>>=20
>>>> Todd
>>>> C-FSTB
>>>> RV9 Turbo13B
>>>>=20
>>>> Todd Bartrim
>>>>=20
>>>> On Fri, Mar 16, 2018 at 6:29 PM, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com=
wrote:
>>>> Hi people
>>>>=20
>>>> Continued testing the Glasair Super IIRG yesterday with an OAT of 70. =
See graph of 13 minutes of data (Note: temps in C, Speed in Knots)
>>>>=20
>>>> Apart from collecting data on the cooling I flooded my system with adr=
enaline.
>>>>=20
>>>> On the second run as I hit about 45knots I encountered very high vibra=
tion with no warning. I braked and turned of the engine thinking it emanate=
d from the engine/prop.
>>>> After leaving the runway and stopping for a few moments I tried a rest=
art, and found all perfectly normal. Previously I had encountered huge miss=
ing at rpm so immediately thought that was the issue.
>>>> Having wrongly diagnosed the phenomenon I taxied back and did another =
run seeking to emulate the fault. Well this time I got up to about 47knots =
and all hell broke loose.=20
>>>> I was barely able to control her, leaving the strip and into the ruff.=
Over the radio came the call =E2=80=9Cif you continue with that front nose=
shimmy you will destroy your aircraft=E2=80=9D.=20
>>>> Well I had no interest in continuing the testing at that stage but was=
very thankful for the feedback from someone watching on. With my lack of e=
xpertise I had completely failed to realise what was happening.
>>>>=20
>>>> Back to the hangar and pulled the Shimmy Damper apart. Oil had gotten =
in at some point, so cleaned it up and re torqued the assembly.
>>>>=20
>>>> A friend on our airstrip with extensive experience in many different a=
ircraft (he has an RV8, Longezy, jet powered cir cri, Comanche twin) then t=
ook it out with me (data not provided) and he confirmed he thought the airc=
raft seemed very responsive (shimmy Damper a little to tight now) and proce=
eded to lift the nose off for the first time under its own power at a littl=
e over 50 knots.
>>>>=20
>>>> So some big lessons for me in relation to my expertise and risk profil=
ing.
>>>> Temps still concerning but I=E2=80=99m wondering if there is enough ca=
pacity to attempt flight testing.
>>>> I would appreciate any wisdom that any of you glean from the log data.=
(I expected a different result from the manifold readings, so not sure wha=
t is going on there)
>>>>=20
>>>> Thanks
>>>>=20
>>>> Steve Izett
=0DVirus-free. www.avast.com =0D
--_51E43322-2E77-4DF9-8861-6A1A0A3515EC_
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"
Yep,=C2=A0 That=E2=80=99s the one (w=
ith 30 rows).
Tracy
Sent from Ma=
il for Windows 10
Hit send too soon. CX Racing has multiple sizes on =
their web site.
https://www.cxracing.com/oil-cooler-kit/oil-cooler-ki=
t-oil-cooler
On 3/19/2018 8:29 AM, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com wrote:=
Good memory Steve. My RV8 inlets are ro=
und, 6=E2=80=9D for water, 5=E2=80=9D for oil cooler. Oil cooler is a=
=E2=80=9C30 row cooler=E2=80=9D found on-line. Can=E2=80=99t remembe=
r make. It=E2=80=99s about 10 x 11 x 2 but with very closely sp=
aced fins so more fin area than the similar core volume on the stock Mazda =
cooler.
The inlets on the RV4 are so irregular (the right side is especially u=
gly : ) that area is unknown.
<=
span style=3D'color:black'>Tracy
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
<=
div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0=
in 0in'>From: =
b>Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com
Sent: Sunday, March 1=
8, 2018 2:54 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Glasair =
Testing
Tracy
Thats what I thought. Our rad should with good airflow easily c=
ool 200hp.
I thought I remembered the Otter with a standard mazda oil cooler and=
the RV8 20b with a bigger aftermarket oil cooler.
Can you provide inlet areas o=
f the RV4 & 8?
Thanks again
<=
span style=3D'color:black'>Steve Izett
> On 18 Mar 2018, at 9:53 am, Tracy Cr=
ook rwstracy@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
>
> Was thinking of the RV-4 but now that you ask, the rad size was f=
rom RV-8. The oil cooler was the RV-4. I used two 10 x 9 x 4 ev=
aporator cores for rad on the 4.
=
>
> Tracy
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Mar 17, =
2018, at 20:13, Stephen Izett st=
ephen.izett@gmail.com &l=
t;flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
>>
>> Tracy
>> When you s=
ay the rad and oil cooler are the same size as yours, were you referring to=
the RV 4 or 8?
>> Steve
>>
>>> On 18 Mar 2018, at 8:08 am, Stephen =
Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironlin=
e.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks Tracy.
=
>>> Much apprecia=
ted.
=
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>> On 18 Mar 2018, at 7:48 am, Tracy C=
rook rwstracy@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>=
wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The rad is the same size as mine so sh=
ould be OK, oil cooler about the same as mine too. Success depends as=
much on volume through them as size though. I can=E2=80=99t guess on=
the inlet size since your airspeed will be higher than mine. In my e=
xperience cooling on ground had very little bearing on how it works in flig=
ht.
>>>>
>>>> When you are committed to first flight,=
don=E2=80=99t wait for full oil & water temps, start takeoff run=
as soon as min. temps reached if possible. I use 120 F. as min=
. That will give best chance to make it around the pattern for quick =
landing before overheating if cooling is not good enough. I did many =
one circuit flights in the early days : )
>>>>
>>>> Tracy
>>=
;>>
>>>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
<=
p class=3DMsoNormal>>>>>
>>>&g=
t; From: Stephen Izett stephen.i=
zett@gmail.com
>>>> Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2018 7:13 PM<=
/o:p>
>>&g=
t;> To: Rotary motors in aircraft
>>>> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: G=
lasair Testing
>>>>
>>>> Hi Tracy.
>>>> <=
/span>
>>>>=
When you said you agree with Todd, was this in relation to the oil cooler =
appearing to be on the small side?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> An=
y other observation re temps etc?
>>>>
>>>> Water Cooler - =
13x17.7x2.35 giving 541in3 fed by 20in2 right cheek which gets very little =
air from the prop.
>>>>
<=
span style=3D'color:black'>>>>> Oil Cooler - turbo rx7 11x8.75x=
2 giving 193in3 fed by 7.4in2 inlet 12=E2=80=9D below spinner, which gets b=
etter prop blast.
>>>>
>>>> See photo for inlets (left cheek=
feeds air filter and cooling of coils only. Right cheek is mirror image)
>&g=
t;>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks again for your gearbox, control=
lers and knowledge base over the years.
>>>>
<=
p class=3DMsoNormal>>>>> Very much =
appreciated.>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Steve Izett=
span>
>>>> =
>=
>>>
>>>> On 18 Mar 2018, at 4:03 am, Tracy Crook rwstracy@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
>>=
;>>
>>>> Hi Steve,
=
>>>> I agree with Todd=E2=80=99s co=
mments. The EM2/3 will not give reliable airspeed readings below arou=
nd 20 MPH due to the limitations of the sensor used and resolution of the A=
DC in the EM3.
>>>>
>>>> Glad to see the progress!
>>>&g=
t;
&=
gt;>>> Tracy
>>>>
>>>> Sent from Mail for Windows 1=
0
>=
;>>>
>>>> From: Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com
>>>> Sent: Saturday, Marc=
h 17, 2018 5:35 AM
>>>> To: Rotary motors in aircraft
>>>> Su=
bject: [FlyRotary] Re: Glasair Testing
>>>>
>>>> Hi guys
>>=
>>
>>>> I repotted the graph using gps ground speed (there wa=
s no breeze that day) as it shows the lower speed taxing where the airspeed=
indicator doesn=E2=80=99t down low.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers=
o:p>
>>>=
;>
>>>> Steve Izett
>>>> <69C652B733844F5DB5ECD4A53043=
8876.jpg>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =
>>>>=
;
&g=
t;>>> On 17 Mar 2018, at 5:28 pm, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
>>=
>>
>>>> HI Todd
>>>> Thanks for the feedback. And yes =
the manifold pressure does make sense, I was upside down expecting a lower =
manifold pressure at WOT. Doh!
>>>> I=E2=80=99m colourblind and cant=
differentiate between some of those colours so was getting confused. =
>>&=
gt;>
>>>> Yes that Cri Cri is an interesting and tiny machine.
>&g=
t;>> Dawie and Sarki are great guys with heaps of experience and have=
been so very helpful.
>>>> They bring it out every time we have an =
open day at our club. The crowds love it.
>>>>
>>>> On anoth=
er note I=E2=80=99m very interested in the possibility of turboing the rene=
sis in the future if all else goes well.
>>>> What turbo are you usi=
ng, what level of boost do you use and what hp do you think this is creatin=
g?
&g=
t;>>>
>>>> Thanks again
>>>>
=
>>>> Steve Ize=
tt
&g=
t;>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 17 Mar 2018, at 4:=
29 pm, Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com<=
/a> <flyrotary@lancaironl=
ine.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Steve;=
>>>> The m=
anifold looks like exactly what I would expect to match your RPM, so no wor=
ries there. The temps don't look too bad to me. Possibly your oil cooling m=
ight be little low as it begins to increase rapidly when you add power and =
during an extended climb-out you may see that get a little hotter than you =
like, but it looks like it stabilizes quickly when you reduce the power.
>>=
;>> If everything else is performing well (fuel, electrical) then I d=
on't see why it's not time to see how it cools in the air. That's a quick p=
lane so my guess is that if you have enough ground cooling for indefinate g=
round operation, you may find excess cooling (and drag) in the air.
>>>=
>
>>>> But the real reason I'm responding right now is not rotar=
y related.... A JET POWERED CRI CRI???? Holy s**t, what will they do =
next! So I found the YouTube video of it (VH-ZSE right?) That's pretty cool=
!
>=
;>>>
>>>> Todd
<=
span style=3D'color:black'>>>>> C-FSTB
>>>> RV9 Turbo13B=
>=
>>>
>>>> Todd Bartrim
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Mar=
16, 2018 at 6:29 PM, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com<flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
>>>> Hi people
>>=
>>
>>>> Continued testing the Glasair Super IIRG yesterday wi=
th an OAT of 70. See graph of 13 minutes of data (Note: temps in C, Speed i=
n Knots)
>>>>
>>>> Apart from collecting data on the cooling=
I flooded my system with adrenaline.
>>>>
>>>> On the secon=
d run as I hit about 45knots I encountered very high vibration with no warn=
ing. I braked and turned of the engine thinking it emanated from the engine=
/prop.
>>>> After leaving the runway and stopping for a few moments =
I tried a restart, and found all perfectly normal. Previously I had encount=
ered huge missing at rpm so immediately thought that was the issue.
>>>=
> Having wrongly diagnosed the phenomenon I taxied back and did another =
run seeking to emulate the fault. Well this time I got up to about 47knots =
and all hell broke loose.
>>>> I was barely able to control her, le=
aving the strip and into the ruff. Over the radio came the call =E2=80=9Cif=
you continue with that front nose shimmy you will destroy your aircraft=E2=
=80=9D.
>>>> Well I had no interest in continuing the testing at th=
at stage but was very thankful for the feedback from someone watching on. W=
ith my lack of expertise I had completely failed to realise what was happen=
ing.
=
>>>>
>>>> Back to the hangar and pulled the Shimmy Damp=
er apart. Oil had gotten in at some point, so cleaned it up and re torqued =
the assembly.
>>>>
>>>> A friend on our airstrip with extens=
ive experience in many different aircraft (he has an RV8, Longezy, jet powe=
red cir cri, Comanche twin) then took it out with me (data not provided) an=
d he confirmed he thought the aircraft seemed very responsive (shimmy Dampe=
r a little to tight now) and proceeded to lift the nose off for the first t=
ime under its own power at a little over 50 knots.
>>>> <=
/span>
>>>>=
So some big lessons for me in relation to my expertise and risk profiling.=
>=
>>> Temps still concerning but I=E2=80=99m wondering if there is e=
nough capacity to attempt flight testing.
>>>> I would appreciate an=
y wisdom that any of you glean from the log data. (I expected a different r=
esult from the manifold readings, so not sure what is going on there)<=
/o:p>
>>&g=
t;>
>>>> Thanks
>>>>
>>>> Steve Izett<=
/span>
<=
o:p>
=
=
p>
=
=
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