X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=OfraNVbY c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=f+E8XqpKlysrLTCqUc8nmw==:117 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=oSMvVwY2MYMA:10 a=KeKAF7QvOSUA:10 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=DKyktqrDip_ggyWdoowA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=edkIvfPsfpWMvaqxw48A:9 a=6M2id9qiSf-xHN7H:21 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 From: "David Leonard" Received: from mail-qk0-f174.google.com ([209.85.220.174] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2c3) with ESMTPS id 10072335 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 31 Aug 2017 21:10:37 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.220.174; envelope-from=wdleonard@gmail.com Received: by mail-qk0-f174.google.com with SMTP id o63so5353613qkb.3 for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2017 18:10:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=ImxI5gyWejzC5pmHr215bpY1vlywfzThZ7EuWpvFs7Q=; b=CyMfsupOkzvfpdfWm9FhB65BZLr8etGBkopOi4Y42/IuI6cRvUes/zsFgr7fdHUJ7v JCdBUchoTwUt+/tD6rXlAKB5EJhB5uUVoAop9fA5RQExb/e9p/avdme0XtAr63dTKKti mcS1oE2OTrUIpICy17SdYQUl+DAbc9qJVXqErtGGJU3j1HnmTsTek/02Oth8ufv8Ls0b 3R8W388jvfp4h9uoRUPFIsP5Q610Emho/HJaeVPnkloYJOzYx864eJ+ilbK/uEDs1RhD +sFilMU5W2KCKWq6YdLuEdOQPTDa+SJO25ZjXzljrQ8wCWNYK3jOkzzI0PZdbWAhiIIY 7eeQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=ImxI5gyWejzC5pmHr215bpY1vlywfzThZ7EuWpvFs7Q=; b=ZK9a65AuJca49inifzc6zz3edhKbkyW5J1DAzVUhXDd+xrlAVYlEUdTTmEKSegbEYQ 4oIQIC/kBinGeawxF2eX+5PVjAhHkGOslt68j/YZK/L1ArsdAxCfzgZYiwCNdtc0cQBb K6QJFOEAzMe4M0OwEc0Uv634Emr+jszO2egObcLDZZJ6xF80nNZ5/dOsHuxF7hdTIFtL R/9ktrW9bdDi+JXkyDE6IX93yk9sH6Cu/9rmKV2nq6lmbfXAGpjorZaTdeKV9LWTv57N tjvKRnzodpR/BjNXH6eeGotJsg7BSYfZLG5kK2vRtXpOL1TSfOJtUhm9Td3UyE5l+CGT 7XLg== X-Gm-Message-State: AHPjjUi+1hI6n9IcxO7R4dXho1FKnzbcV3TL1gxlqiWJIkMlrsfAFxtW f0Z32YvfmHRiRaVmOCzkWY2FiSyEfg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADKCNb4CDKi4sZnHo+iHsqygrj+oUXQACVFd0yhvSmnC5ZWhgx9RkN7FO/CosUXFhQksMwbqM91QmfFD1XgkMOJ5TX0= X-Received: by 10.55.151.7 with SMTP id z7mr398408qkd.129.1504228221432; Thu, 31 Aug 2017 18:10:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.200.25.202 with HTTP; Thu, 31 Aug 2017 18:10:20 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2017 18:10:20 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Heat Soak & Fuel Purge valve- Another half baked idea? To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c08c2c8ccb9480558166cf5" --94eb2c08c2c8ccb9480558166cf5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Steve, My what the diagram shows is what I got. The benifit of putting the the flow sensor in the return line: - it still shows the health of the whole system not just the front end - it allows calculation of how much fuel is being transferred when using the alternate tank Even if in the front end, it still could not be used for fuel usage calculations. However, that is easlly accomplished by the use of an electronic totalizer like in the EM2 or Ed Andersons unit. (much more accurate too). Dave Leonard On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 2:59 PM, Steven W. Boese < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > Dave, > On your fuel system diagram there is a fuel flow transducer in the return > line. Is there another one between the fuel pumps and the fuel rail like > the fuel pressure transducer? If not, how does the fuel flow indication > system work? > > Steve Boese > > On Aug 31, 2017, at 2:54 PM, Todd Bartrim > wrote: > > Hi Dave; > Happy to see you back on the list as well. I think the last we heard from > you was when you were looking to buy a TIG welder. How did that work out > for you? Hearing about you guys flying up to be in the eclipse path is a > great story for those who are currently ground bound. I'm looking forward > to getting back up there. > Thanks for the fuel diagram. It's a what I would probably have done if > I hadn't gone with all these tanks, and should probably still do it. > I'll answer in detail in another post with a fuel diagram. > > I hope everybody managed to get through the storm OK? > > Todd > > > Todd Bartrim > > On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 2:04 PM, David Leonard < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > >> I agree with Matt. The high pressure high flow system is one of the >> strengths of going with an alternate engine. Besides eliminating any >> possibility of vapor lock, it also provides protection against such >> malaties as water contamination and un-mixed 2-stroke oil. >> >> The pluming is not particularly difficult, especially when compared to >> some of the options you are considering here. I just have a single return >> line that returns to the left tank, eliminating the need for a 2 control >> valves. That means that when I am on the right tank I am transferring fuel >> to the left which leaves open the possibility of overflow out the vent, but >> I always set a timer and it has not been a problem for me. >> >> When fueling away from home, it is difficult to get the 2-stroke oil to >> mix well, even with rocking the plane. The high flow system mixes it >> quickly in the the left tank, but when I switch to the right I often get >> several seconds of rough running now matter how much I try to shake and >> shimmy first. If it were not for the high flow system, those several >> seconds of rough running would turn into nearly a full minute. That would >> be NO fun!!! >> >> Glad to see you back at it Todd! >> >> Trip report: I just flew my RV-6 up to Idaho for the eclipse. We stayed >> at a place with a private dirt strip in the Sawtooth Mountains at 5200'. >> Epic experience. Very hot sometimes and I was glad to have a return flow >> system. >> >> Dave Leonard >> Turbo Rotary RV-6 >> coming up on 1000 hrs soon..... >> >> On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 5:23 AM, Matt Boiteau < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >>> What was your reason to go return-less? >>> >>> I have 4 tanks in the wings split between the middle spar. Front left & >>> right, Back left & right. Instead of having a selector valve for each tank >>> (plus their return lines), I made 1 tank the main header tank. Fuel >>> supplies and returns to it. And the rest of the tanks feed the main tank >>> using transfer pump. No selector valve, full return system. >>> >>> -Matt Boiteau >>> >>> On Aug 22, 2017 17:36, "Todd Bartrim" >>> wrote: >>> >>>> By opening manually, I meant just opening the oil hatch on the top of >>>> the RV cowl to let it cool. With that up in the air it would be difficult >>>> to miss and if I did miss it during a pre-flight, then I'd probably not be >>>> doing a good job of my pre-flight inspection. >>>> But I do think it's a good idea and one that I may have given more >>>> serious consideration to if I'd known about it earlier this year when I was >>>> doing fiberglass work on the cowl. >>>> At this point though it looks pretty easy for me to add the fuel purge >>>> to the injector header, so unless somebody talks me back from the ledge, >>>> I'm probably going to jump. Just as soon as I finish a solar mod on my boat >>>> so I can take my kid fishing tomorrow. >>>> >>>> Todd >>>> >>>> Todd Bartrim >>>> >>>> On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 12:28 PM, Thomas Mann < >>>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >Cheaper, lighter and probably safer to just open the door manually. >>>>> ____________________________________________________________ >>>>> ______________ >>>>> Cheaper: Depending on the alternative? Probably >>>>> Lighter: Again, depending on the alternative???? >>>>> Safer: Doubtful. These things are pretty much foolproof and have been >>>>> used in aircraft already for just this purpose. >>>>> With a front hinged vent door I cannot see a benefit to using a >>>>> manual mechanical method of operation. >>>>> If you do use a mechanical actuator ..... don't forget to come >>>>> back and close it. >>>>> >>>>> All in all, it's sounds as those this would not be a good solution for >>>>> you. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >> > --94eb2c08c2c8ccb9480558166cf5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Steve,=C2=A0

My what the diagram sho= ws is what I got.=C2=A0 The benifit of putting the the flow sensor in the r= eturn line:
- it still shows the health of the whole system not j= ust the front end
- it allows calculation of how much fuel is bei= ng transferred when using the alternate tank

Even = if in the front end, it still could not be used for fuel usage calculations= .=C2=A0 However, that is easlly accomplished by the use of an electronic to= talizer like in the EM2 or Ed Andersons unit. =C2=A0(much more accurate too= ).

Dave Leonard

On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 2:59 PM, Steven = W. Boese <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px= #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Dave,
On your fuel system di= agram there is a fuel flow transducer in the return line.=C2=A0 Is there an= other one between the fuel pumps and the fuel rail like the fuel pressure t= ransducer?=C2=A0 If not, how does the fuel flow indication system work?

Steve Boese

On Aug 31, 2017, at 2:54 PM, Todd Bartrim <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wro= te:

Hi Dave;
=C2=A0Happy to see you back on the list as well. I think the last we h= eard from you was when you were looking to buy a TIG welder. How did that w= ork out for you? Hearing about you guys flying up to be in the eclipse path= is a great story for those who are currently ground bound. I'm looking forward to getting back up there.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Thanks for the fuel diagram. It's a what I would prob= ably have done if I hadn't gone with all these tanks, and should probab= ly still do it.
I'll answer in detail in another post with a fuel diagram.

I hope everybody managed to get through the storm OK?

Todd


Todd Bartrim

On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 2:04 PM, David Leonard <= span dir=3D"ltr"> <flyrot= ary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
I agree with Matt.=C2=A0 The high pressure high flow syste= m is one of the strengths of going with an alternate engine.=C2=A0 Besides = eliminating any possibility of vapor lock, it also provides protection agai= nst such malaties as water contamination and un-mixed 2-stroke oil.

The pluming is not particularly difficult, especially when compared to= some of the options you are considering here.=C2=A0 I just have a single r= eturn line that returns to the left tank, eliminating the need for a 2 cont= rol valves.=C2=A0 That means that when I am on the right tank I am transferring fuel to the left which leaves open the= possibility of overflow out the vent, but I always set a timer and it has = not been a problem for me.

When fueling away from home, it is difficult to get the 2-stroke oil t= o mix well, even with rocking the plane.=C2=A0 The high flow system mixes i= t quickly in the the left tank, but when I switch to the right I often get = several seconds of rough running now matter how much I try to shake and shimmy first.=C2=A0 If it were not for = the high flow system, those several seconds of rough running would turn int= o nearly a full minute.=C2=A0 That would be NO fun!!!

Glad to see you back at it Todd!

Trip report: I just flew my RV-6 up to Idaho for the eclipse.=C2=A0 We= stayed at a place with a private dirt strip in the Sawtooth Mountains at 5= 200'.=C2=A0 Epic experience.=C2=A0 Very hot sometimes and I was glad to= have a return flow system.

Dave Leonard
Turbo Rotary RV-6
coming up on 1000 hrs soon.....=C2=A0

On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 5:23 AM, Matt Boiteau <flyrot= ary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
What was your reason to go return-less?

I have 4 tanks in the wings split between the middle spar. Front left &= right, Back left & right. Instead of having a selector valve for each = tank (plus their return lines), I made 1 tank the main header tank. Fuel su= pplies and returns to it. And the rest of the tanks feed the main tank using transfer pump. No selector valve, full = return system.

-Matt Boiteau

On Aug 22, 2017 17:36, "Todd Bartrim" = <flyrot= ary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
By opening manually, I meant just opening the oil hatch on= the top of the RV cowl to let it cool. With that up in the air it would be= difficult to miss and if I did miss it during a pre-flight, then I'd p= robably not be doing a good job of my pre-flight inspection.
But I do think it's a good idea and one that I may have given more= serious consideration to if I'd known about it earlier this year when = I was doing fiberglass work on the cowl.
At this point though it looks pretty easy for me to add the fuel purge= to the injector header, so unless somebody talks me back from the ledge, I= 'm probably going to jump. Just as soon as I finish a solar mod on my b= oat so I can take my kid fishing tomorrow.

Todd

Todd Bartrim

On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 12:28 PM, Thomas Mann <flyrot= ary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
>Cheaper, lighter and probably safer to just open the door manually= .
____________________________________________________________= ______________
Cheaper: Depending on the alternative? Probably
Lighter: Again, depending on the alternative????
Safer: Doubtful. These things are pretty much foolproof and have been used = in aircraft already for just this purpose.
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 With a front hinged vent door I cannot= see a benefit to using a manual mechanical method of operation.
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 If you do use a mechanical actuator ..= ... don't forget to come back and close it.
=C2=A0
All in all, it's sounds as those this would not be a good solution= for you.
=C2=A0




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