X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: "Christian And Tamara Mcdonald" Received: from mail-wm0-f54.google.com ([74.125.82.54] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.12) with ESMTPS id 9047342 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 19 Oct 2016 06:00:56 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=74.125.82.54; envelope-from=christamarmc@gmail.com Received: by mail-wm0-f54.google.com with SMTP id c78so41638606wme.0 for ; Wed, 19 Oct 2016 03:00:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=l4+6DWj3GBV2TRXxWAPPRoFy/AnBo522BIvKD2e0GZ4=; b=QG7nEiEpA0VrRbypflK8dNrqWCIHTHXhv1/TV/dcjSdC/MbUEeVgPe8QVvn8SHRwjd Xzi6G9fBgZmVbnKOl9IebH25dJvHg1EARuvpy85sxfWFhgatRY7UYk0UBqoU/SldAb4e MfzO+jlen9VM6xYf0hFfEH3o6jUbdoQI2PPyJHeVBzH5NWdTMwR/NAm/2w2QyydloVqH d17qSZAws6uqOeGH6ZB+2otJiF76/P6jt4Gvtj1Rf8gvgNohI6vG9LSP7XLD2ZWAYxqn GCzI+9gpvFE9TdjukNjih2UY+0btRmtED9YwXXT0qLliM44Xw3j/POIVzEVOc4Qdkbrt vjxA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=l4+6DWj3GBV2TRXxWAPPRoFy/AnBo522BIvKD2e0GZ4=; b=S5C7moBVQVcBUqgwixldfX0hIDKR7wHVx0/Btoq+r+uHpH4xTAOqXh4w78Aeyuf12o tgzySMEgBKzUY1WENT1jA1Dp8CKACwHQwro3XGDkzUyohhkcehIzJIXyg0FP2MrAo6sV 1LhaOYWPC1q4CbGN55W0pJA2VRabQwpvnbXS4xD5ssXzS3qPgg8Iy/0A0Zb8Qi4qCAy/ eCxTIgdHPmtnjnd+1At+wl3kGk5qSizco4fQXRcGFfIVYW8C5DcazYJqIecpKvH1WUc6 ot+M/oWC1rP/yXHBmPC6/j9pNYN3Anyz/TjbA5EjYPTLAgl+E4Ss9loZ2X+hXMcNbijl Vh3w== X-Gm-Message-State: AA6/9RlF3cLzWCmc6QHYrsBhhbZ9J3aKxtvl2MjAanJpcQGMRvEf3geboSaD7nGUrzd6e2ScSc+NkwydlKSBuw== X-Received: by 10.28.55.212 with SMTP id e203mr4454186wma.92.1476871237198; Wed, 19 Oct 2016 03:00:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.186.8 with HTTP; Wed, 19 Oct 2016 03:00:36 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 20:00:36 +1000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] New Gearbox and P-Port Renesis Update- for Neil Unger To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114425b478e9ab053f34e189 --001a114425b478e9ab053f34e189 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Charlie I've found that I can get my engine down to around 1700 rpm and still a nice smooth idle. And that's with the plenum and p port, my Rv gets to see some aeros and so far excels at it due to the efi, never had it hesitate so far. One day my plan is to put an inverted oil as the efi already takes care of inverted flight, which should be quite easy with the rotary. Cheers On Tuesday, 18 October 2016, Charlie England wrote: > Please keep us updated. I'm really hopeful that the Renesis P-port with > plenum/throttle body/port injection will idle at a more conventional rpm, > since it has less overlap than a 13B & better mixture 'insertion'. > > I'm guessing that you don't do acro in that airframe. Did you do any > stress analysis on mounting the drive plate with just the round spacers & > using the motor mount attached to the plate? IIRC, Tracy was a bit > concerned with using the plate for the motor mount attach, even with his > block shaped spacers, since the plate now carries the engine weight in > bending, in addition to the drive weight. He also wasn't crazy about > cutting pockets in the plate, because it removed material in some highly > stressed areas. Probably not a major issue in normal category, but we RV > drivers have to be a little more cautious. :-) How did you address those > issues? > > Again, please keep the info coming. you guys are doing a lot to keep the > rotary movement alive! > > Charlie > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 3:57 PM, Neil Unger > wrote: > >> Charlie, actually still experimenting. The housing is turned on a jig >> in the lathe as the cost of a thread tap for that size exceeds $2000!! >> Ouch. The inner that seals onto the plug was just high temp sealer. Th= e >> outer can be sealer or wick in locktite. The plug is aluminium with a >> taper that is left rough to turbulate the air. apparently very necessary= . >> >> There are many ways to p port, so about to get some scrapped housings to >> experiment with various methods. Cheapest and best whatever that turns = out >> to be. >> >> My second engine has a single TB. About to fire up so will be a ball of >> knowledge as to what to NOT do shortly. >> >> Attached shows the TB and PSRU. I have put 2.25 runners on to see it it >> makes a difference. (not shown) Neil. >> >> On 10/17/2016 11:06 PM, Charlie England wrote: >> >> Hi Neil, >> >> Thanks for the pics, and please keep sharing. >> >> Can you give us a blow-by-blow on the process? Do you simply bore the >> housing on a mill? Straight threads? How do you seal them? Any special >> techniques where the port goes through the chrome liner? Thread diameter= ? >> ID of the pipe? Aluminum, steel, or stainless? >> >> And are you saying that one of you is running individual TB's, as shown >> in the pics, and the other has a plenum with single TB? Any noticeable >> differences in HP, BSFC, idle quality, etc? >> >> My hat's off to y'all; you're doing some really interesting and >> innovative work! >> >> Charlie >> >> On Sun, Oct 16, 2016 at 11:54 PM, Neil Unger > > wrote: >> >>> Kelly, on the twin TB they are 50 mm while on the single (cheaper) is 8= 0 >>> mm, comes off a V8. Neil. >>> >>> On 10/17/2016 3:30 PM, Kelly Troyer wrote: >>> >>> Neil, >>> What size are the throttle body throats ??............ >>> >>> Kelly Troyer >>> >>> On Sun, Oct 16, 2016 at 10:44 PM, Neil Unger < >>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net >>> > wrote: >>> >>>> Charlie If your eyes are good enough you can jsu see the threads on >>>> the inlet P port plugs. They are joined with the clamp to the TB's. = I >>>> Have another close up I will try and find. Neil >>>> >>>> On 10/17/2016 2:33 PM, Charlie England wrote: >>>> >>>> And total size of the email must be less than 200K, if memory serves. >>>> Do you have any image resizing software? >>>> >>>> Charlie >>>> (wanting to see details on those screw-in P-ports) >>>> >>>> On 10/16/2016 10:26 PM, Neil Unger wrote: >>>> >>>> Chris, Only one Pic per email seems to be the go, Neil >>>> >>>> On 10/17/2016 2:07 PM, Christian And Tam wrote: >>>> >>>> No worries >>>> Do you have a personal email as I can't seem to post to this forum wit= h >>>> pics >>>> >>>> Cheers >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On 17 Oct 2016, at 6:34 am, Bobby J. Hughes < >>>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Christian >>>> What manifold pressure do you see at idle? I would love to see a few >>>> pictures of your FWF. >>>> >>>> >>>> Bobby >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >>>> On Oct 16, 2016, at 3:24 PM, Christian And Tamara Mcdonald < >>>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Bobby >>>> I went for a single 90mm tb and plenum over the opposite side of the >>>> motor and seems to work well, idles at approx 2150 and happily there. >>>> Could get lower but prop speed is low enough. >>>> >>>> Cheers >>>> Christian >>>> >>>> On Monday, 17 October 2016, Bobby J. Hughes < >>>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>>> Individual TB's were used so they could be located as close to the >>>>> block as possible for improved idle and throttle response. Idle is st= ill at >>>>> 18" MP cold and a little lower after warm up. The renesis should hav= e >>>>> little or no overlap so the single throttle body before the intake ma= nifold >>>>> appears to work well. >>>>> >>>>> Sale is pending for second buyer. Not sure if engine is staying with >>>>> the plane or being removed. >>>>> >>>>> Bobby >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>> >>>>> > On Oct 16, 2016, at 10:38 AM, Bill Bradburry < >>>>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> > Bobby, >>>>> > Do you know why he did the three TBs and not a plenum with one TB? >>>>> > Also I thought I saw where the sale of his plane was pending. What >>>>> is going on there? Was it sold as a flying plane or did you remove t= he >>>>> engine? >>>>> > Bill >>>>> > >>>>> > -----Original Message----- >>>>> > From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net= ] >>>>> > Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2016 8:50 AM >>>>> > To: Rotary motors in aircraft >>>>> > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: New Gearbox and P-Port Renesis Update- for >>>>> Neil Unger >>>>> > >>>>> > Mark Steitle experienced sticky slide throttle. He modified it >>>>> several times and eventually switched to one butterfly TB per rotor. >>>>> > >>>>> > Bobby >>>>> > >>>>> > Sent from my iPad >>>>> > >>>>> >> On Oct 16, 2016, at 3:50 AM, Neil Unger < >>>>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Doug, Had severe problems with a slide throttle, went with >>>>> butterfly and no problems since. Neil. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >>> On 10/16/2016 7:07 PM, Doug Lomheim wrote: >>>>> >>> Hi Neil: >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> I have read where some P-Port attempts have resulted in a >>>>> =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93sticky=C3=A2=E2=82=AC throttle due to suction a= t certain power applications, etc. >>>>> Do you experience any issues such as that with your set up? >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> thx. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Doug >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> -- >>>>> >>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>>>> >>> Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net >>>>> :81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> -- >>>>> >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>>>> >> Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net >>>>> :81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>>>> > >>>>> > -- >>>>> > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>>>> > Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net >>>>> :81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > -- >>>>> > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>>>> > Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net >>>>> :81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>>>> Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net >>>>> :81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline. >> net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> >> > --001a114425b478e9ab053f34e189 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Charlie
I've found that I can get my engine down to around 1700 = rpm and still a nice smooth idle.
And that's with the plenum = and p port, my Rv gets to see some aeros and so far excels at it due to the= efi, never had it hesitate so far.
One day my plan is to put an = inverted oil as the efi already takes care of inverted flight, which should= be quite easy with the rotary.

Cheers

On T= uesday, 18 October 2016, Charlie England <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Please keep us updated. I'm really = hopeful that the Renesis P-port with plenum/throttle body/port injection wi= ll idle at a more conventional rpm, since it has less overlap than a 13B &a= mp; better mixture 'insertion'.

I'm guessing= that you don't do acro in that airframe. Did you do any stress analysi= s on mounting the drive plate with just the round spacers & using the m= otor mount attached to the plate? IIRC, Tracy was a bit concerned with usin= g the plate for the motor mount attach, even with his block shaped spacers,= since the plate now carries the engine weight in bending, in addition to t= he drive weight. He also wasn't crazy about cutting pockets in the plat= e, because it removed material in some highly stressed areas. Probably not = a major issue in normal category, but we RV drivers have to be a little mor= e cautious. :-) How did you address those issues?

= Again, please keep the info coming. you guys are doing a lot to keep the ro= tary movement alive!

Charlie

On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 3:5= 7 PM, Neil Unger <flyro= tary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
=20 =20 =20

Charlie,=C2=A0 actually still experimenting.=C2=A0 The housing is tu= rned on a jig in the lathe as the cost of a thread tap for that size exceeds $2000!! Ouch.=C2=A0 The inner that seals onto the plug was ju= st high temp sealer.=C2=A0 The outer can be sealer or wick in locktite.= =C2=A0 The plug is aluminium with a taper that is left rough to turbulate the air. apparently very necessary.

There are many ways to p port, so about to get some scrapped housings to experiment with various methods.=C2=A0 Cheapest and best whatever that turns out to be.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

My second engine has a single TB.=C2=A0 About to fire up so will be = a ball of knowledge as to what to NOT do shortly.

Attached shows the TB and PSRU. I have put 2.25 runners on=C2=A0 to see it it makes a difference. (not shown)=C2=A0 Neil.


On 10/17/2016 11:06 PM, Charlie England wrote:
Hi Neil,

Thanks for the pics, and please keep sharing.

Can you give us a blow-by-blow on the process? Do you simply bore the housing on a mill? Straight threads? How do you seal them? Any special techniques where the port goes through the chrome liner? Thread diameter? ID of the pipe? Aluminum, steel, or stainless?

And are you saying that one of you is running individual TB's, as shown in the pics, and the other has a plenum with single TB? Any noticeable differences in HP, BSFC, idle quality, etc?

My hat's off to y'all; you're doing some really in= teresting and innovative work!

Charlie

On Sun, Oct 16, 2016 at 11:54 PM, Neil Unger <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Kelly, on the twin TB they are 50 mm while on the single (cheaper) is 80 mm, comes off a V8.=C2=A0 Neil.<= br>


On 10/17/2016 3:30 PM, Kelly Troyer wrote:
Neil,
=C2=A0 What size are the throttle body throats ??............

Kelly Troyer

On Sun, Oct 16, 2016 at 10:44 PM, Neil Unger <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Charlie=C2=A0 If your eyes are good enough you can jsu see the threads on the inlet P port plugs.=C2=A0 They are joined with th= e clamp to the TB's.=C2=A0 I Have another= close up I will try and find.=C2=A0 Neil


On 10/17/2016 2:33 PM, Charlie England wrote:
And total size of the email must be less than 200K, if memory serves. Do you have any image resizing software?

Charlie
(wanting to see details on those screw-in P-ports)

On 10/16/2016 10:26 PM, Neil Unger wrote:

Chris,=C2=A0 Only one Pic per emai= l seems to be the go,=C2=A0 Neil


On 10/17/2016 2:07 PM, Christian And Tam wrote:
No worries
Do you have a personal email as I can't seem to post to this forum with pics

Cheers

Sent from my iPhone

On 17 Oct 2016, at 6:34 am, Bobby J. Hughes <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Christian
What manifold pressure do you see at idle?=C2=A0 I would lo= ve to see a few pictures of your FWF.=C2=A0


Bobby





Sent from my iPad

On Oct 16, 2016, at 3:24 PM, Christian And Tamara Mcdonald <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Hi Bobby
I went for a single 90mm tb and plenum over the opposite side of the motor and seems to work well, idles at approx 2150 and happily there.
Could get lower but prop speed is low enough.

Cheers
Christian

On Monday, 17 October 2016, Bobby J. Hughes <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Individual TB's were used so they could be located as close to the block as possible for improved idle and throttle response. Idle is still at 18"=C2=A0 MP cold = and a little lower after warm up. The renesis should have little or no overlap so the single throttle body before the intake manifold appears to work well.

Sale is pending for second buyer. Not sure if engine is staying with the plane or being removed.

Bobby

Sent from my iPad

> On Oct 16, 2016, at 10:38 AM, Bill Bradburry <f= lyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
>
> Bobby,
> Do you know why he did the three TBs and not a plenum with one TB?
> Also I thought I saw where the sale of his plane was pending.=C2=A0 What is going on there?=C2=A0 W= as it sold as a flying plane or did you remove the engine?
> Bill
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@la= ncaironline.net]
> Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2016 8:50 AM
> To: Rotary motors in aircraft
> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: New Gearbox and P-Port Renesis Update- for Neil Unger
>
> Mark Steitle experienced sticky slide throttle. He modified it several times and eventually switched to one butterfly TB per rotor.
>
> Bobby
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Oct 16, 2016, at 3:50 AM, Neil Unger <flyro= tary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
>>
>> Doug,=C2=A0 Ha= d severe problems with a slide throttle,=C2=A0 went with butterfly and no problems since.=C2=A0 Neil.
>>
>>
>>> On 10/16/2016 7:07 PM, Doug Lomheim wrote:
>>> Hi Neil:
>>>
>>> I have read where some P-Port attempts have resulted in a =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93st= icky=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C2=A0 throttle due to suction at certain power applications, etc.=C2=A0 Do you experience any issues such as that with your set up?
>>>
>>> thx.
>>>
>>> Doug
>>>
>>> --
>>> Homepage:=C2=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/<= /a>
>>> Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 =C2=A0= http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.ht= ml
>>
>>
>> --
>> Homepage:=C2= =A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/
>> Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 =C2=A0http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html=
>
> --
> Homepage:=C2=A0 http://www.flyrotary.= com/
> Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 =C2=A0http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html=
>
>
> --
> Homepage:=C2=A0 http://www.flyrotary.= com/
> Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 =C2=A0http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html=

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