X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from omr-m09.mx.aol.com ([64.12.143.82] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.8) with ESMTPS id 6724919 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 09 Feb 2014 12:20:33 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.12.143.82; envelope-from=shipchief@aol.com Received: from mtaomg-mbc02.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-mbc02.mx.aol.com [172.26.221.144]) by omr-m09.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id 4828D701CBDDD for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2014 12:19:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from core-ddd003a.r1000.mail.aol.com (core-ddd003.r1000.mail.aol.com [172.29.52.201]) by mtaomg-mbc02.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id 08D8B38000099 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2014 12:19:58 -0500 (EST) References: To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Exhaust Leak at Turbo Outlet Flange In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: shipchief@aol.com X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8D0F3D24A8FE28D_2560_49AE9_webmail-m137.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 38366-STANDARD Received: from 72.171.16.248 by webmail-m137.sysops.aol.com (149.174.9.25) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Sun, 09 Feb 2014 12:19:57 -0500 Message-Id: <8D0F3D24A7F38E6-2560-13021@webmail-m137.sysops.aol.com> X-Originating-IP: [72.171.16.248] Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2014 12:19:57 -0500 (EST) x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20121107; t=1391966398; bh=fyz6LRhtGZS0Yz7/f+75G0iy8b8OFSfXskYogLkUMYg=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-Id:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=riWxn0j/aKSZuKgzjkbLnniwbsICCfMVC2hq3l3IHhPTbvrVUDP+WDCplHLEASQ2Z 8pSAzbCe79r04fequNcvYIVe97wNEWn6K3e7FvU8THwEfmvcTTzUIhe6Dy4XSQ+rKG ck/5iJxx9iRkzi2VEnm07HwLk83hb7cbusSXujKk= x-aol-sid: 3039ac1add9052f7b8be2462 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ----------MB_8D0F3D24A8FE28D_2560_49AE9_webmail-m137.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Marc and all; I have the original Mazda nuts which hold the exhaust manifold to the core = engine, double nutted for security. The exhaust manifold is my own fabrication, welded up from 304 stainless fl= anges and 321 stainless tube. It takes 3/8" hardware to bolt the turbo onto= the manifold and to bolt the exhaust pipe flange to the turbine housing. I flew it Friday with 18-8 bolts, drilled and safety wired, holding on the = exhaust pipe flange. I used fine thread bolts & lock nuts on 3 of the turbo= mount - to - manifold flange holes, but had to make a stud from an 18-8 ca= rriage bolt (coarse thread) for the one hole with tight clearance where no = bolt would fit. I made a lock tab washer for that one. Ross Farnham the Subbie guru advised me to not use fine threads in this app= lication, and that 18-8 would gall on disassembly, and couldn't take the st= ress over a long period of time. He also does not recommend using washers. I'm Google searching for Inconel 625 bolts, studs & locknuts in 3/8-16....i= f any of you know of a source that will sell small quantities, I'd like to = hear from you. =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Marc Wiese To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sat, Feb 1, 2014 9:01 am Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Exhaust Leak at Turbo Outlet Flange I find my Inconel metric exhaust hardware in the piles of removed OEM turbo= stuff the =E2=80=98racers=E2=80=99 take off to go single turbo on the late= r (93+) models. Works for me. Marc =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beh= alf Of marv@lancair.net Sent: Friday, January 31, 2014 7:14 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Exhaust Leak at Turbo Outlet Flange =20 You might want to check out McMaster Carr... they have 18-8 bolts (actually= cap screws) with drilled heads... go to their site mcmaster.com and put 90= 121A581 into the search box... it's probably not the right size bolt but it= will take you to that catalog page. Unfortunately they don't appear to ha= ve them in metric sizes, but once you get past 1/4" you can frequently use = SAE sizes in lieu of the metric(as long as you're providing both screw & nu= t.... thread pitches don't match.) BTW, take a look at 321 stainless for t= he stuff you're thinking about doing in Inconel... IHTH. shipchief@aol.com wrote: >=20 > Lynn, > I think you are right about bolt material, I looked up grade 8 steel, it'= s=20 >only rated to 450 degrees F. 18-8 (304) stainless, although much weaker, h= as=20 >incredible temperature range . It's rated for pressure vessel service to= =20 >about 1300F and general use to 1690F. > So I just broke off a 1/16" drill in the head of an 18-8 stainless bolt,= =20 >trying to make it accept safety wire. I'll keep working on that. > I'm considering Inconel 600 hardware for the turbo inlet flange, it's rat= ed=20 >to 2000F, but I'll try the stainless there for now, and watch it a lot. > I plan to trim large diameter washers to fit tight against the turbo and= =20 >header bodies, then after tightening the bolts, bend the washer edge up t= o=20 >act as a lock tab. >=20 >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- >From: shipchief shipchief@aol.com > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Sent: Mon, Jan 27, 2014 7:22 pm > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Exhaust Leak at Turbo Outlet Flange >=20 >=20 > Dave; > you pretty well summarized the problem. > Ross the Subaru guy over on the VANs air force forum had valuable input a= s=20 >well. > After I cleaned up and inspected the mess, installed grade 8 bolts and gr= ade=20 >C high temp lock nuts on the turbo mount flange. I used the stainless=20 >embossed shim type gasket. > I assembled the turbine exhaust - to - exhaust pipe flange W/O gasket, us= ing=20 >1" grade 5 bolts that I had on hand. I used grade 8 washers, stacked based= on=20 >the hole depth, they are not all the same depth. > I removed the Kevlar exhaust pipe wrap, cut off an undamaged section, and= =20 >stuffed it into the burned thru hole in the turbo blanket. > I made exhaust pipe heat shields out of cut offs from galvanized building= =20 >studs, left over from building my hangar. > N89SE ran like a top, and made the 32 minute flight back to the Home Drom= e=20 >with no trouble.=20 > Today I shopped at the local specialty fastener store and picked up more= =20 >Grade 8 hardware and some 1/16" cobalt drill bits, no one seems to carry= =20 >drilled head grade 8 bolts around here. > I brought the top cowl home to repair the heat damaged spot over the turb= o.=20 >The repair might be an aluminum inspection door. > Oh, one last thing; today I post flight inspected the repair, and all eig= ht=20 >fasteners took 1/12th of a turn to re-tighten. I figure that's just therma= l=20 >setting. Even if safety wired, they would need to be un-wired and re-torqu= ed=20 >at least once?=20 > (I posted similar on the VANs forum, so you might see this over there too= ) >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- >From: Lehanover > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Sent: Mon, Jan 27, 2014 10:59 am > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Exhaust Leak at Turbo Outlet Flange >=20 >=20 >=20 > If you use locking nuts like Jet nuts that grip the stud, you just back o= ut=20 >the stud on removal. Use the stock nuts or stainless nuts and safety wire= =20 >them in the tightening direction. They never come loose and can be removed= =20 >without drama. On my NA engines I use no exhaust gasket. Just a bead of GE= =20 >100% silicone tub and tile calk. Keep it well away from the ports. Never h= ad=20 >a leak, but I had no back pressure from a turbo hot section either. Might = be=20 >worth a try. =20 >=20 > Lynn E. Hanover >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > In a message dated 1/27/2014 9:09:09 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,=20 >cardmarc@charter.net writes: > =20 > =20 > I believe Mazda uses some Inconel hardware on the 93+ 13Brew=20 >engines=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6found this out the hard and e= xpensive way. > =20 > Marc > =20 >=20 > =20 >From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On= =20 >Behalf Of David Leonard > Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 8:14 PM > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Exhaust Leak at Turbo Outlet Flange > =20 >=20 > =20 > =20 > Bummer! Glad you are safe. > =20 > =20 >=20 > =20 > =20 > I use the stock steel nuts. Locknuts might be an improvement but not i= f=20 >there is any non-steel component. I did loose one of those nuts once=20 >without to-do. Not sure how long it was gone. The other 2 held everyth= ing=20 >together. > =20 > =20 >=20 > =20 > =20 > Be very careful with what gaskets you choose. I found some nice-lookin= g=20 >aftermarket turbo manifold gaskets for about $20 while the stock version= s=20 >are about $90 each, so I installed one. It lasted about 30 hours until = it=20 >disintegrated. The resulting exhaust leak burned through a coolant line= =20 >and I dead sticked onto a local airport (departing from a formation rout= ine=20 >at an airshow!.. complete with a cloud of steam). > =20 > =20 >=20 > =20 > =20 > Sigh, the stock ones are nothing but stainless steel layer, not some so= rt=20 >of fiber stuff in the after market ones.=20 > =20 > =20 >=20 > =20 > =20 > On another occasion I was using some very nice and expensive exhaust=20 >clamps that were steel but I didnt notice that part of the block holding= =20 >the nuts was aluminum. About 50 hrs in something caused the alumimum to= =20 >get too hot, which created an exhaust leak, which accelerated the proces= s.=20 > It burned a hole in the cowl and splatered molten aluminum everywhere -= =20 >some of it is still around. > =20 > =20 >=20 > =20 > =20 > Another time I was using some fancy exhaust wrap. It slowly disintigra= ted=20 >over the course of 100+ hours and was generally an annoyance. > =20 > =20 >=20 > =20 > =20 > I tried a flowmaster hushpower muffler but melted most of the stuffing = out=20 >of it on the first flight. Luckily it melted pretty cleanly and didnt cl= og=20 >the exhaust. > =20 > =20 >=20 > =20 > =20 > Moral of the story.. as if it didn't take me long enough to beat this= =20 >through my skull.. NOTHING that is not made of steel or better goes int= o=20 >any part of the exhaust system. Particularly gaskets and nuts. > =20 > =20 >=20 > =20 > =20 > Guess I should have passed that one along sooner. Glad you got back=20 >safely. Good job. > =20 > =20 >=20 > =20 > =20 > Dave Leonard > =20 > =20 > On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 5:14 PM, wrote: > =20 > =20 > =20 >=20 > =20 > =20 > =20 > I had the nuts come loose on my turbo manifold on the block, I'm usin= g=20 >with out the turbo, so I drilled the nuts and secured them with wire.= =20 > JohnD > =20 > =20 > =20 >=20 > =20 > =20 > Thanks for keeping us all informed , helps us all to make sure we loo= k=20 >for often simple overlooked areas. > =20 > =20 >=20 > =20 > =20 > Cheers > =20 > =20 > Christian=20 > =20 > =20 > Renises 13 b rv7 >=20 > Sent from my iPad > =20 > =20 >=20 > On 26/01/2014, at 3:17 AM, shipchief@aol.com wrote: > =20 > =20 > =20 > =20 > During the 8th flight of my RV8 with 13B Turbo, I experienced an=20 >exhaust leak at the turbo exhaust flange. I mistakenly used brass=20 >exhaust nuts which are twice as tall as regular nuts. They work gre= at=20 >on most engines. I should have know better, as the temperature at th= e=20 >turbo outlet, under the insulation is much higher. > =20 > =20 > The brass nuts softened and deformed into a flange face at the wash= er!=20 >Once the tension was gone, the heat & vibration did the rest. > =20 > =20 > The exhaust gasket blew where the gap was widest, at the top. > =20 > =20 > The escaping heat burned thru the insulating jacket and the stick o= n=20 >reflective aluminum. Then the fiberglass cowl charred, I smelled=20 > that! > =20 > =20 > I was close to my destination, and high, so I was able to pull off = the=20 >power, put down the nosed and get on the ground without incide= nt. > =20 > =20 > I'm disassembling it now, looks like I need 4 high temperature lock= =20 >nuts and a TO-4 exhaust flange gasket. I should review and improve t= he=20 >insulation over the turbine housing. Also I need to repair the charr= ed=20 >area of the cowl, which might be in the form of an aluminum access= =20 > hatch. >=20 >=20 >=20 > =20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 -- =20 Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ =20 Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.= html ----------MB_8D0F3D24A8FE28D_2560_49AE9_webmail-m137.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"
Marc and all;
I have the original Mazda nuts which hold the exhaust manifold to the = core engine, double nutted for security.
The exhaust manifold is my own fabrication, welded up from 304 stainle= ss flanges and 321 stainless tube. It takes 3/8" hardware to bolt the turbo= onto the manifold and to bolt the exhaust pipe flange to the turbine housi= ng.
I flew it Friday with 18-8 bolts, drilled and safety wired, holding on= the exhaust pipe flange. I used fine thread bolts & lock nuts on 3 of = the turbo mount - to - manifold flange holes, but had to make a stud from a= n 18-8 carriage bolt (coarse thread) for the one hole with tight clearance = where no bolt would fit. I made a lock tab washer for that one.
Ross Farnham the Subbie guru advised me to not use fine threads in thi= s application, and that 18-8 would gall on disassembly, and couldn't take t= he stress over a long period of time. He also does not recommend using wash= ers.
I'm Google searching for Inconel 625 bolts, studs & locknuts in 3/= 8-16....if any of you know of a source that will sell small quantities, I'd= like to hear from you.


-----Original Message-----
From: Marc Wiese <cardmarc@charter.net>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, Feb 1, 2014 9:01 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Exhaust Leak at Turbo Outlet Flange

I find my Inconel me= tric exhaust hardware in the piles of removed OEM turbo stuff the =E2=80=98= racers=E2=80=99 take off to go single turbo on the later (93+) models. Work= s for me.
Marc
 
= From: Rotary moto= rs in aircraft [mailto:flyr= otary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of marv@lancair.net
Sent: Friday, January 31, 2014 7:14 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Exhaust Leak at Turbo Outlet Flange<= /div>
 
You= might want to check out McMaster Carr... they have 18-8 bolts (actually ca= p screws) with drilled heads... go to their site mcmaster.com and put = 90121A581 into the search box... = it's probably not the right size bolt but it will take you to that catalog = page.  Unfortunately they don't appear to have them in metric sizes, b= ut once you get past 1/4" you can frequently use SAE sizes in lieu of the m= etric(as long as you're providing both screw & nut.... thread pitches d= on't match.)  BTW, take a look at 321 stainless for the stuff you're t= hinking about doing in Inconel... IHTH.  <Marv>

 shipchief@aol.com wrote:

>
> Lynn,
> I think you are right about bolt material, I looked up grade 8 steel, = it's
>only rated to 450 degrees F. 18-8 (304) stainless, although much weaker= , has
>incredible temperature range .  It's rated for pressure vesse= l service to
>about 1300F and general use to 1690F.
> So I just  broke off a 1/16" drill in the head of an 18-8 st= ainless bolt,
>trying to make it accept safety wire. I'll keep working on that.
> I'm considering Inconel 600 hardware for the turbo inlet flange, it's = rated
>to 2000F, but I'll try the stainless there for now, and watch it a lot.=
> I plan to trim large diameter washers to fit tight against the turbo a= nd
>header bodies, then after tightening the bolts, bend  the was= her edge up to
>act as a lock tab.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>From: shipchief shipchief@aol.com<= /a>
> To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
> Sent: Mon, Jan 27, 2014 7:22 pm
> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Exhaust Leak at Turbo Outlet Flange
>
>
> Dave;
> you pretty well summarized the problem.
> Ross the Subaru guy over on the VANs air force forum had valuable inpu= t as
>well.
> After I cleaned up and inspected the mess, installed grade 8 bolts and= grade
>C high temp lock nuts on the turbo mount flange. I used the stainless <= br> >embossed shim type gasket.
> I assembled the turbine exhaust - to - exhaust pipe flange W/O gasket,= using
>1" grade 5 bolts that I had on hand. I used grade 8 washers, stacked ba= sed on
>the hole depth, they are not all the same depth.
> I removed the Kevlar exhaust pipe wrap, cut off an undamaged section, = and
>stuffed it into the burned thru hole in the turbo blanket.
> I made exhaust pipe heat shields out of cut offs from galvanized build= ing
>studs, left over from building my hangar.
> N89SE ran like a top, and made the 32 minute flight back to the Home D= rome
>with no trouble.
> Today I shopped at the local specialty fastener store and picked up mo= re
>Grade 8 hardware and some 1/16" cobalt drill bits, no one seems to carr= y
>drilled head grade 8 bolts around here.
> I brought the top cowl home to repair the heat damaged spot over the t= urbo.
>The repair might be an aluminum inspection door.
> Oh, one last thing; today I post flight inspected the repair, and all = eight
>fasteners took 1/12th of a turn to re-tighten. I figure that's just the= rmal
>setting. Even if safety wired, they would need to be un-wired and re-to= rqued
>at least once?
> (I posted similar on the VANs forum, so you might see this over there = too)
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>From: Lehanover <Lehanover@aol.= com>
> To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
> Sent: Mon, Jan 27, 2014 10:59 am
> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Exhaust Leak at Turbo Outlet Flange
>
>
>
> If you use locking nuts like Jet nuts that grip the stud, you just bac= k out
>the stud on removal. Use the stock nuts or stainless nuts and safety wi= re
>them in the tightening direction. They never come loose and can be remo= ved
>without drama. On my NA engines I use no exhaust gasket. Just a bead of= GE
>100% silicone tub and tile calk. Keep it well away from the ports. Neve= r had
>a leak, but I had no back pressure from a turbo hot section either. Mig= ht be
>worth a try.  
>
> Lynn E. Hanover
>
>
>
>
> In a message dated 1/27/2014 9:09:09 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>cardmarc@charter.net writes= :
>  
>  
> I believe Mazda   uses some Inconel hardware on the 93+ 13Br= ew
>engines=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6found this out the &nbs= p; hard and expensive way.
>  
> Marc
>  
>
>  
>From: Rotary motors in   aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On
>Behalf Of David   Leonard
> Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 8:14 PM
> To:   Rotary motors in aircraft
> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Exhaust Leak at   Turbo Outlet Flan= ge
>  
>
>  
>  
> Bummer!  Glad you are safe.
>  
>  
>
>  
>  
> I use the stock steel nuts.  Locknuts might be an  = ; improvement but not if
>there is any non-steel component.  I did loose one  = ; of those nuts once
>without to-do.  Not sure how long it was gone.  &nb= sp; The other 2 held everything
>together.
>  
>  
>
>  
>  
> Be very careful with what gaskets you choose.  I found =   some nice-looking
>aftermarket turbo manifold gaskets for about $20 while the   = stock versions
>are about $90 each, so I installed one.  It lasted about = ;  30 hours until it
>disintegrated.  The resulting exhaust leak burned  = through a coolant line
>and I dead sticked onto a local airport (departing   from a f= ormation routine
>at an airshow!..  complete with a cloud of   steam)= .
>  
>  
>
>  
>  
> Sigh, the stock ones are nothing but stainless steel   layer= , not some sort
>of fiber stuff in the after market   ones.
>  
>  
>
>  
>  
> On another occasion I was using some very nice and   expensi= ve exhaust
>clamps that were steel but I didnt notice that part of the   = block holding
>the nuts was aluminum.  About 50 hrs in something caused = ;  the alumimum to
>get too hot, which created an exhaust leak, which accelerated &nbs= p; the process.
> It burned a hole in the cowl and splatered molten aluminum  = everywhere -
>some of it is still around.
>  
>  
>
>  
>  
> Another time I was using some fancy exhaust   wrap. &nb= sp;It slowly disintigrated
>over the course of 100+ hours and was   generally an annoyanc= e.
>  
>  
>
>  
>  
> I tried a flowmaster hushpower muffler but melted most   of = the stuffing out
>of it on the first flight. Luckily it melted pretty   cleanly= and didnt clog
>the exhaust.
>  
>  
>
>  
>  
> Moral of the story..  as if it didn't take me long &nbs= p; enough to beat this
>through my skull..  NOTHING that is not made of   s= teel or better goes into
>any part of the exhaust system.  Particularly   gas= kets and nuts.
>  
>  
>
>  
>  
> Guess I should have passed that one along sooner.   &nb= sp;Glad you got back
>safely.  Good job.
>  
>  
>
>  
>  
> Dave   Leonard
>  
>  
> On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 5:14 PM, <downing.j@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>  
>  
>  
>
>  
>    
>    
> I had the nuts     come loose on my turbo manifold= on the block, I'm using
>with out     the turbo, so I drilled the nuts and s= ecured them with wire.
>     JohnD
>    
>    
>    
>
>    
>    
> Thanks for keeping us all informed , helps us all to make  &= nbsp;  sure we look
>for often simple overlooked areas.
>    
>    
>
>    
>    
> Cheers
>    
>    
> Christian
>    
>    
> Renises 13 b rv7
>
> Sent from my     iPad
>    
>    
>
> On 26/01/2014, at 3:17     AM, shipchief@aol.com wrote:
>    
>      
>      
>      
> During the 8th       flight of my RV8 wi= th 13B Turbo, I experienced an
>exhaust leak at the       turbo exhaust f= lange. I mistakenly used brass
>exhaust nuts  which are       t= wice as tall as regular nuts. They work great
>on most engines. I should       have know= better, as the temperature at the
>turbo outlet, under the       insulation = is much higher.
>      
>      
> The brass nuts       softened and deform= ed into a flange face at the washer!
>Once the tension       was gone, the heat= & vibration did the       rest.
>      
>      
> The exhaust gasket       blew where the = gap was widest, at the top.
>      
>      
> The escaping heat       burned thru the = insulating jacket and the stick on
>reflective       aluminum. Then the fiber= glass cowl charred, I smelled
>      that!
>      
>      
> I was close to my       destination, and= high, so I was able to pull off the
>power, put down the       nosed and get o= n the ground without       incident.
>      
>      
> I'm disassembling       it now, looks li= ke I need 4 high temperature lock
>nuts and a TO-4       exhaust flange gask= et. I should review and improve the
>insulation over the       turbine housing= . Also I need to repair the charred
>area of the cowl, which       might be in= the form of an aluminum access
>      hatch.
>
>
>
>  
>
>
>
>
> 
--
 
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
&nb=
sp;
Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lanc=
aironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
 ----------MB_8D0F3D24A8FE28D_2560_49AE9_webmail-m137.sysops.aol.com--