X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from omr-d01.mx.aol.com ([205.188.252.208] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.8) with ESMTPS id 6704844 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 13:59:13 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.188.252.208; envelope-from=Lehanover@aol.com Received: from mtaomg-mce01.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-mce01.mx.aol.com [172.29.27.207]) by omr-d01.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id 53E4870057A97 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 13:58:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from core-moc004b.r1000.mail.aol.com (core-moc004.r1000.mail.aol.com [172.29.195.13]) by mtaomg-mce01.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id 0DCDD38000085 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 13:58:38 -0500 (EST) From: Lehanover@aol.com Full-name: Lehanover Message-ID: <227ed.538133ee.4018065d@aol.com> Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2014 13:58:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Exhaust Leak at Turbo Outlet Flange To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_227ed.538133ee.4018065d_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 9.7 sub 1028 X-Originating-IP: [96.58.0.249] x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20121107; t=1390849118; bh=8zs8ewnfLnKm1JqdHRjDvs27aG4q+hCQLpq7ChfdBL4=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=zGrkr+2F1Fu7WSfHrpawJTNEP6zbjXNMDZYyjdzw/YrnH4+ihQUAmpc3t01I3RR7z fqoi0EW5S0EaFMxTsI2yEkBx5yaG5hNQ/RQCWbR9tXlAXdpqND7icAxmQ4bLrjWHou IlwzTns4GLs95a7vCbhmE99kwtq0t1yz3x1hEKrs= x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d1bcf52e6ac5e429d --part1_227ed.538133ee.4018065d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en If you use locking nuts like Jet nuts that grip the stud, you just back out= =20 the stud on removal. Use the stock nuts or stainless nuts and safety wire= =20 them in the tightening direction. They never come loose and can be removed= =20 without drama. On my NA engines I use no exhaust gasket. Just a bead of GE= =20 100% silicone tub and tile calk. Keep it well away from the ports. Never= =20 had a leak, but I had no back pressure from a turbo hot section either. Mi= ght=20 be worth a try. =20 Lynn E. Hanover =20 =20 =20 =20 In a message dated 1/27/2014 9:09:09 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, =20 cardmarc@charter.net writes: =20 I believe Mazda uses some Inconel hardware on the 93+ 13Brew engines=E2=80= =A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6 found this out the hard and expensive way.=20 Marc=20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of David Leonard Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 8:14 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Exhaust Leak at Turbo Outlet Flange=20 =20 Bummer! Glad you are safe. =20 =20 I use the stock steel nuts. Locknuts might be an improvement but not if= =20 there is any non-steel component. I did loose one of those nuts once=20 without to-do. Not sure how long it was gone. The other 2 held everythin= g=20 together. =20 =20 Be very careful with what gaskets you choose. I found some nice-looking= =20 aftermarket turbo manifold gaskets for about $20 while the stock versions= =20 are about $90 each, so I installed one. It lasted about 30 hours until it= =20 disintegrated. The resulting exhaust leak burned through a coolant line a= nd=20 I dead sticked onto a local airport (departing from a formation routine at= =20 an airshow!.. complete with a cloud of steam). =20 =20 Sigh, the stock ones are nothing but stainless steel layer, not some sort= =20 of fiber stuff in the after market ones.=20 =20 =20 On another occasion I was using some very nice and expensive exhaust=20 clamps that were steel but I didnt notice that part of the block holding t= he=20 nuts was aluminum. About 50 hrs in something caused the alumimum to get t= oo=20 hot, which created an exhaust leak, which accelerated the process. It=20 burned a hole in the cowl and splatered molten aluminum everywhere - some = of it=20 is still around. =20 =20 Another time I was using some fancy exhaust wrap. It slowly disintigrated= =20 over the course of 100+ hours and was generally an annoyance. =20 =20 I tried a flowmaster hushpower muffler but melted most of the stuffing out= =20 of it on the first flight. Luckily it melted pretty cleanly and didnt clog= =20 the exhaust. =20 =20 Moral of the story.. as if it didn't take me long enough to beat this=20 through my skull.. NOTHING that is not made of steel or better goes into = any=20 part of the exhaust system. Particularly gaskets and nuts. =20 =20 Guess I should have passed that one along sooner. Glad you got back=20 safely. Good job. =20 =20 Dave Leonard =20 On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 5:14 PM, <_downing.j@sbcglobal.net_=20 (mailto:downing.j@sbcglobal.net) > wrote:=20 =20 =20 =20 I had the nuts come loose on my turbo manifold on the block, I'm using=20 with out the turbo, so I drilled the nuts and secured them with wire. Jo= hnD =20 =20 =20 Thanks for keeping us all informed , helps us all to make sure we look for= =20 often simple overlooked areas. =20 =20 Cheers =20 Christian=20 =20 Renises 13 b rv7 Sent from my iPad =20 On 26/01/2014, at 3:17 AM, _shipchief@aol.com_ (mailto:shipchief@aol.com) = =20 wrote: =20 =20 During the 8th flight of my RV8 with 13B Turbo, I experienced an exhaust= =20 leak at the turbo exhaust flange. I mistakenly used brass exhaust nuts =20 which are twice as tall as regular nuts. They work great on most engines. = I=20 should have know better, as the temperature at the turbo outlet, under the= =20 insulation is much higher. =20 The brass nuts softened and deformed into a flange face at the washer!=20 Once the tension was gone, the heat & vibration did the rest. =20 The exhaust gasket blew where the gap was widest, at the top. =20 The escaping heat burned thru the insulating jacket and the stick on=20 reflective aluminum. Then the fiberglass cowl charred, I smelled that! =20 I was close to my destination, and high, so I was able to pull off the=20 power, put down the nosed and get on the ground without incident. =20 I'm disassembling it now, looks like I need 4 high temperature lock nuts= =20 and a TO-4 exhaust flange gasket. I should review and improve the insulati= on=20 over the turbine housing. Also I need to repair the charred area of the=20 cowl, which might be in the form of an aluminum access hatch. --part1_227ed.538133ee.4018065d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en
If you use locking nuts like Jet nuts that grip the stud, you just bac= k out=20 the stud on removal. Use the stock nuts or stainless nuts and safety wire t= hem=20 in the tightening direction. They never come loose and can be removed witho= ut=20 drama. On my NA engines I use no exhaust gasket. Just a bead of GE 100% sil= icone=20 tub and tile calk. Keep it well away from the ports. Never had a leak, but = I had=20 no back pressure from a turbo hot section either. Might be worth a try.=20  
 
Lynn E. Hanover
 
 
 
In a message dated 1/27/2014 9:09:09 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,=20 cardmarc@charter.net writes:
=

I believe M= azda=20 uses some Inconel hardware on the 93+ 13Brew engines=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2= =80=A6=E2=80=A6found this out the=20 hard and expensive way.

Marc

 =

From: Rotary mot= ors in=20 aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of David= =20 Leonard
Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 8:14 PM
To:= =20 Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Exhaust Leak= at=20 Turbo Outlet Flange

 

Bummer!  Glad you are safe.

 

I use the stock steel nuts.  Locknuts might be = an=20 improvement but not if there is any non-steel component.  I did loos= e one=20 of those nuts once without to-do.  Not sure how long it was gone.&nb= sp;=20 The other 2 held everything together.

 

Be very careful with what gaskets you choose.  = I found=20 some nice-looking aftermarket turbo manifold gaskets for about $20 while = the=20 stock versions are about $90 each, so I installed one.  It lasted ab= out=20 30 hours until it disintegrated.  The resulting exhaust leak burned= =20 through a coolant line and I dead sticked onto a local airport (departing= =20 from a formation routine at an airshow!..  complete with a clou= d of=20 steam).

 

Sigh, the stock ones are nothing but stainless = steel=20 layer, not some sort of fiber stuff in the after market=20 ones. 

 

On another occasion I was using some very nice and= =20 expensive exhaust clamps that were steel but I didnt notice that part of = the=20 block holding the nuts was aluminum.  About 50 hrs in something caus= ed=20 the alumimum to get too hot, which created an exhaust leak, which acceler= ated=20 the process.  It burned a hole in the cowl and splatered molten alum= inum=20 everywhere - some of it is still around.

 

Another time I was using some fancy exhaust=20 wrap.  It slowly disintigrated over the course of 100+ hours and was= =20 generally an annoyance.

 

I tried a flowmaster hushpower muffler but melted mo= st=20 of the stuffing out of it on the first flight. Luckily it melted pre= tty=20 cleanly and didnt clog the exhaust.

 

Moral of the story..  as if it didn't take me l= ong=20 enough to beat this through my skull..  NOTHING that is not mad= e of=20 steel or better goes into any part of the exhaust system.  Particula= rly=20 gaskets and nuts.

 

Guess I should have passed that one along sooner.&nb= sp;=20 Glad you got back safely.  Good job.

 

Dave=20 Leonard

On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 5:14 PM, <downing.j@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

 

I had the = nuts=20 come loose on my turbo manifold on the block, I'm using with = out=20 the turbo, so I drilled the nuts and secured them with wire. =20 JohnD

 

Thanks for keeping us all informed , helps us all = to make=20 sure we look for often simple overlooked areas.

 

Cheers

Christian 

Renises 13 b rv7

Sent from my=20 iPad


On 26/01/2014, a= t 3:17=20 AM, shipchief@aol.com wrote:

During the = 8th=20 flight of my RV8 with 13B Turbo, I experienced an exhaust leak at the= =20 turbo exhaust flange. I mistakenly used brass exhaust nuts  whic= h are=20 twice as tall as regular nuts. They work great on most engines. I sho= uld=20 have know better, as the temperature at the turbo outlet, under the= =20 insulation is much higher.

The brass n= uts=20 softened and deformed into a flange face at the washer! Once the tens= ion=20 was gone, the heat & vibration did the=20 rest.

The exhaust= gasket=20 blew where the gap was widest, at the top.

The escapin= g heat=20 burned thru the insulating jacket and the stick on reflective=20 aluminum. Then the fiberglass cowl charred, I smelled= =20 that!

I was close= to my=20 destination, and high, so I was able to pull off the power, put down = the=20 nosed and get on the ground without=20 incident.

I'm disasse= mbling=20 it now, looks like I need 4 high temperature lock nuts and a TO-= 4=20 exhaust flange gasket. I should review and improve the insulation ove= r the=20 turbine housing. Also I need to repair the charred area of the cowl, = which=20 might be in the form of an aluminum access=20 hatch.

 

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