X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [64.129.170.194] (HELO VIRCOM1.fcdata.private) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.5) with ESMTP id 5591682 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 10 Jun 2012 17:38:02 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.129.170.194; envelope-from=cbarber@texasattorney.net Received: from FCD-MAIL05.FCDATA.PRIVATE (unverified [172.16.5.24]) by VIRCOM1.fcdata.private (Vircom SMTPRS 5.1.1024.13396) with ESMTP id for ; Sun, 10 Jun 2012 16:36:47 -0500 X-Modus-BlackList: 172.16.5.24=OK;cbarber@texasattorney.net=OK X-Modus-RBL: 172.16.5.24=Excluded X-Modus-Trusted: 172.16.5.24=NO X-Modus-Audit: FALSE;0;0;0 Received: from FCD-MAIL06.FCDATA.PRIVATE ([fe80::697f:d6aa:b87:78d8]) by FCD-MAIL05.FCDATA.PRIVATE ([fe80::809d:a06e:5913:452e%13]) with mapi id 14.01.0355.002; Sun, 10 Jun 2012 16:36:18 -0500 From: Chris Barber To: Rotary motors in aircraft CC: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: First flight - Velocity N17010 Thread-Topic: [FlyRotary] Re: First flight - Velocity N17010 Thread-Index: AQHNR08d9UIZFp+CD0uXAkj7AkwqhZb0E9Yy Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 21:37:23 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_E1A0BE7E83CA40F79183F87FAEC07A89texasattorneynet_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_000_E1A0BE7E83CA40F79183F87FAEC07A89texasattorneynet_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Great info Dave. I am cheating even more. The Dynon allows me to program in the re-drive rat= io of 2.17 into the system and it reads the actual prop speed. The RWS moni= tor (Tracy Crooks unit) still reads engine RPM. I am training my eyes to fo= cus more equally on both monitors as a check and balance and in the case of= RPM letting the system do the math. Sent from my iPhone 4 On Jun 10, 2012, at 4:23 PM, "Dave" > wrote: Ok.. Correct.. oil is measured after the cooler before it goes back into th= e engine. Are you still using the 4 outlet bulkhead mounted oil filter pede= stal? When I left your project build, I'd put a blind plug in one of the in= lets, 1/2" temp probe or bushing/probe combo in one of the outlets, and the= n left the pedestal with one inlet and outlet reserved for oil flow. Also.. just for reference purposes 24.7 inches of mercury MAP is equivalen= t to near wide open throttle/high cruise in a normally aspirated engine.. y= ou should see about 25-26 inches normally aspirated in an efficient intake = at wide open throttle.. maybe a tad more... 29-30 inches of mercury is sea = level ambient pressure. A 1.5 lb spring only gives you 3 inches of boost...= so at the power settings you are describing you are not reaping the benefi= t of the turbo yet.. but thats ok considering you are only in the pattern. Do some math and figure out what 2400-2500 prop RPM is (cant remember the r= edrive ratio for you).. also do the same for 1800, 2000, 2200 and just make= a cheat sheet and use those for power settings on your next hop. Adjust th= at prop for 2500 or so RPM for downwind and patterns and see what your spee= ds are. Are you using manually adjustable or "constant speed" functionality= on the IVO? Full fine manual is fine for starting off on the ground but on= ce you get to flying speed/positive rate of climb you dont need that fine a= pitch unless you are doing a VX climb trying to outclimb an obstruction...= . rough starting points to figure out your unboosted cruising regimens will= be prop speed of 2000 rpm and map of 20 inches... and 24 inches then do th= e same at 2400 rpm at 20 inches and 24 inches.. look at the difference in s= peed, and NOISE. You can play with power settings above 25 inches/boosted p= ower later in your flight test but get some basic flight test numbers down = pat. I'm extrapolating the numbers that I used in my instrument training in= a piper arrow.. its not the same plane nor engine, but its a starting poin= t if you dont have firm numbers already established. When I was in the arrow, high cruise was 24"/2400 rpm, low cruise was 20"/2= 000 rpm.. if I remember right the 20/20 gave me 90 knots level and then wit= h the landing gear extended it put me in a perfect glideslope descent at th= ose settings/trim. I'd be curious to hear what speeds your bird gets with t= hose. Remember: Adjust your engine POWER with your throttle and adjust your engin= e SPEED/prop speed with the prop control. Full throttle with fine pitch is = great for making noise. Pull the RPM down while maintaining MP and you will= really pick up speed. I dont know what you've done recently, but I do know= all your prior flying before I left the project was fixed pitch prop and t= he adjustable prop adds a little bit to the mental game. If what I'm talkin= g about really doesn't make much sense, go talk with Dave G in his RV and g= et him to take you up and show you what its all about so you can wrap your = head around it. Good luck.. keep it coming.. On 6/10/2012 2:52 PM, Chris Barber wrote: Ok, here is new information to me. I posted on the Velocity list regarding= my oil temps and was informed that oil temperature should be measured comi= ng OUT of the coolers, not out of the engine like I have set up. This is just the opposite from the way the factory has the coolant plumbing= run as the stock coolant temperature sensor is near the thermostat housing= as it comes out of the engine and into the radiator. I do not know where = the stock oil sensor is located (if I did, I now forget) but Al G. and John= Dibble state the temp should be taken for oil coming out of the coolers. = Heck, if this is the case, my oil may be quite a bit cooler than I was thin= king. Opinions please. It should not be too difficult to add a sensor to = where the oil enters the engine. Don't know if the Delta will be much, but= perhaps enough.... What say Ye? Chris ________________________________ From: Chris Barber Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 1:26 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: First flight - Velocity N17010 I reviewed my very short and shaky video more. On Downwind, it shows a GPS= speed of 127 kts. The rotary is turning at 6870 RPM (up about 600 RPM fro= m static) with a MAP of 24.7 (1.5 lb spring in the waste gate). Coolant Te= mp was 187 degrees and oil temp was 224. Oil pressure and Coolant pressure= numbers could not be read but the "gauges" on the Dynon were in the green. A few minutes later I was able to get another picture of my engine data tak= en as I was rolling off the active. These reading are about 30 seconds aft= er the wheels touch down. I know it is 30 seconds since I can hear the whe= els touching the pavement since my I-phone continued to record even though = it was face down in my passenger seat. Engine RPM was 2489 and the coolant= was down to 175. More interesting was that the oil temp had already dropp= ed to 204 (20 degree drop). Yeah, still higher than I like but a pretty bi= g drop a matter of a few minutes. I do think oil takes longer to read delta= T's than coolant...but I could be damned wrong on that. Perhaps I just noticed the oil enough after a full power climb before it ha= d a chance to adapt and cool a bit?? Chris ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of CozyGirrrl@aol.com [CozyGirrrl@aol.com] Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 11:52 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: First flight - Velocity N17010 Congratulations Chris! I knew you'd do it this morning. Please consider you= rself hugged by both of us. What wastegate are you using with that spring? Chrissi & Randi www.CozyGirrrl.com CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware Chairwomen, Sun-N-Fun Engine Workshop In a message dated 6/9/2012 1:17:14 P.M. Central Daylight Time, cbarber@tex= asattorney.net writes: Didn't notice MAP. Since I am concerned about detonation I have the weakest= spring installed. It is 1.5 lbs. Sent from my iPhone 4 On Jun 9, 2012, at 12:42 PM, "Kelly Troyer" > wrote: YAA-HOO Chris !!.................Congrats and keep the reports coming......= ......Be interested in if your oil temp was just hi power takeoff temp that would come down with reduced power and more airs= peed............Did you notice what MAP was (amount of boost) ??......................<:) Kelly Troyer On Sat, Jun 9, 2012 at 12:24 PM, Bobby J. Hughes > wrote: Congrats Chris. Be safe and keep the reports coming. Does your Dynon have = ant data logging capability? Bobby Sent from my iPad On Jun 9, 2012, at 11:53 AM, "Chris Barber" > wrote: June 9, 2002 - A trailer pulled up in front of a simple but comfortable hom= e in Houston. Lots of trails, tribulations blood, time, money, recreation, education, fun= , friendships, anger, frustration, problem solving, sweat, pondering etc...= .repeat and repeat again and again. Fast forward (it did go fast) June 9, 2012 - Ellington Field - A lone, very nervous man arrives at the ai= rport shortly before 0900 hrs. Pushes onto the ramp the contraption compose= d of fiberglass, metal et al and the ingredients listed above. He sits down= and writes a simple holographic (hand written) will and short note with in= formation to call "Mom" and work. Calls tower to relay intent via the phone= . Preflights the contraption. Gets in, goes though basic Checklist. Cranks up= the engine, which fires right up at about 0920 hrs. Taxi to Juliet. Calls = tower to verify intent and to taxi to active, 35L. Taxis to Taxiway Echo. C= hecks temps. Pushing 195 with OAT reading 95 degrees (geesh it is only abou= t 0930 hrs). Cleared to take active and hold. Taxied out. Lined up castering nose wheel = down center stripe. Cleared to take off. Added power and engine smoothly ra= n up. Airspeed coming in. 30 kts...50 kts ....60 kts, approximate rotation = speed. Lots of runway (9000 ft).....hold it....70 kts....72 kts... Slight p= ull on the yoke....AIRBORNE!!! Leaped into ground effect. Screw this, pulle= d back on yoke and I am climbing. Jiggled the yoke a bit to verify control = authority. Climbed to about 400 feet and turned right pattern to crosswind. The Dynon = altitude and airspeed seem to be working. That's reassuring. Pattern altitu= de is only 600 feet and I was there already as I turned to downwind. Levele= d off and noticed the clouds were lower than reported and appeared on the g= round. Also, noticed coolant temps had dropped to 190....but oil temps were= flashing at me and had reached 225 (synthetic Royal Purple). Damn. Ok. Fly= the airplane, the oil is not at not a critical level. , but let's just fin= ish the pattern and land. I grabbed my phone while on downwind and attempte= d to record some data but while I can hear the engine the video is awful..= ..uh, in my defense, I was a bit distracted and way more concerned with fly= ing. I called the tower and informed them I was coming in. I think they wer= e looking out for me since as I turned to base I noticed the fire departmen= t staged just off the runways threshold I noted I was a bit far out on down wind so I stared easing over to turn ba= se. Wow. I really overshot it as I blew by the runway and had to use full r= ight rudder to get back to the runway. I wish I had had more rudder. In hin= dsight I think I was not using much aileron as I was cognoscente that I had= no idea of stall characteristics so I did not yet wish too strep a turn. I= was able to get over the runway and dump some altitude as I got over the n= umbers and pulled power. Crap, I am fast. I am lined up and right on the nu= mbers but at 95 kts. I come and touchdown and bounced. Pulled power to idle= s and settled down easily but fast at 90 and rolled out and exited at Delta= . The tower was clearing me back to the city hangars as I was exiting the a= ctive. I taxi back and noticed the oil temps had decreased but I don't reca= ll how much, just noticed they were lower. I got back to my hangar and popped the door and shut her down. The engine w= ent silent without any hissing or gushing. I called my mom. I am mowing informing the world. I did a walk around and did not see anything missing. I am about to pull th= e cowl and check things out. I did notice I did not develop a slight hand shaking untill after I landed = and exited the aircraft. ;-) Hey, how about that, it really is an aircraft = now. Ten years to the day following delivery. Thank you for your support. Christopher Barber, JD Houston, Ellington Field (EFD) Velocity N17010 Turbo Rotary 13b RWS Re-drive and engine computers Dynon Skyview Mistral intake Sent from my iPhone 4 --_000_E1A0BE7E83CA40F79183F87FAEC07A89texasattorneynet_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Great info Dave. 

I am cheating even more. The Dynon allows me to program in the re-driv= e ratio of 2.17 into the system and it reads the actual prop speed. The RWS= monitor (Tracy Crooks unit) still reads engine RPM. I am training my eyes = to focus more equally on both monitors as a check and balance and in the case of RPM letting the system do the ma= th. 

Sent from my iPhone 4

On Jun 10, 2012, at 4:23 PM, "Dave" <david.staten@gmail.com> wrote:

Ok.. Correct.. oil is measured after the cooler before it goes back in= to the engine. Are you still using the 4 outlet bulkhead mounted oil filter= pedestal? When I left your project build, I'd put a blind plug in one of t= he inlets, 1/2" temp probe or bushing/probe combo in one of the outlets, and then left the pedestal with one inlet and= outlet reserved for oil flow.

Also.. just for reference purposes  24.7 inches of mercury MAP is equi= valent to near wide open throttle/high cruise in a normally aspirated engin= e.. you should see about 25-26 inches normally aspirated in an efficient in= take at wide open throttle.. maybe a tad more... 29-30 inches of mercury is sea level ambient pressure. A 1.5 l= b spring only gives you 3 inches of boost... so at the power settings you a= re describing you are not reaping the benefit of the turbo yet.. but thats = ok considering you are only in the pattern.

Do some math and figure out what 2400-2500 prop RPM is (cant remember the r= edrive ratio for you).. also do the same for 1800, 2000, 2200 and just make= a cheat sheet and use those for power settings on your next hop. Adjust th= at prop for 2500 or so RPM for downwind and patterns and see what your speeds are. Are you using manually adjustab= le or "constant speed" functionality on the IVO? Full fine manual= is fine for starting off on the ground but once you get to flying speed/po= sitive rate of climb you dont need that fine a pitch unless you are doing a VX climb trying to outclimb an obstruction.= ... rough starting points to figure out your unboosted cruising regimens wi= ll be prop speed of 2000 rpm and map of 20 inches... and 24 inches then do = the same at 2400 rpm at 20 inches and 24 inches.. look at the difference in speed, and NOISE. You can play w= ith power settings above 25 inches/boosted power later in your flight test = but get some basic flight test numbers down pat. I'm extrapolating the numb= ers that I used in my instrument training in a piper arrow.. its not the same plane nor engine, but its a s= tarting point if you dont have firm numbers already established.

When I was in the arrow, high cruise was 24"/2400 rpm, low cruise was = 20"/2000 rpm.. if I remember right the 20/20 gave me 90 knots level an= d then with the landing gear extended it put me in a perfect glideslope des= cent at those settings/trim. I'd be curious to hear what speeds your bird gets with those.

Remember: Adjust your engine POWER with your throttle and adjust your engin= e SPEED/prop speed with the prop control. Full throttle with fine pitch is = great for making noise. Pull the RPM down while maintaining MP and you will= really pick up speed. I dont know what you've done recently, but I do know all your prior flying before I le= ft the project was fixed pitch prop and the adjustable prop adds a little b= it to the mental game. If what I'm talking about really doesn't make much s= ense, go talk with Dave G in his RV and get him to take you up and show you what its all about so you can w= rap your head around it.

Good luck.. keep it coming..

On 6/10/2012 2:52 PM, Chris Barber wrote:

Ok, here is new information to me.  I posted on the Velocity l= ist regarding my oil temps and was informed that oil temperature = should be measured coming OUT of the coolers, not out of the engine like I = have set up. 

This is just the opposite from the way the factory has the coolant plumb= ing run as the stock coolant temperature sensor is near the thermostat hous= ing as it comes out of the engine and into the radiator.  I do not kno= w where the stock oil sensor is located (if I did, I now forget) but Al G. and John Dibble state the temp should b= e taken for oil coming out of the coolers.  Heck, if this is the case,= my oil may be quite a bit cooler than I was thinking.  Opinions pleas= e.  It should not be too difficult to add a sensor to where the oil enters the engine.  Don't know if the Delta= will be much, but perhaps enough....

What say Ye?

Chris

From: Chris Barber
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 1:26 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: First flight - Velocity N17010

I reviewed my very short and shaky video more.  On Downwind, it sho= ws a GPS speed of 127 kts.  The rotary is turning at 6870 RPM (up abou= t 600 RPM from static) with a MAP of 24.7 (1.5 lb spring in the w= aste gate).  Coolant Temp was 187 degrees and oil temp was 224.  Oil pressure and Coolant pressure numbers could not be read= but the "gauges" on the Dynon were in the green.

 

A few minutes later I was able to get another picture of my en= gine data taken as I was rolling off the active.  These reading are ab= out 30 seconds after the wheels touch down.  I know it is 30 seconds s= ince I can hear the wheels touching the pavement since my I-phone continued to record even though it was face down in my&nbs= p;passenger seat.  Engine RPM was 2489 and the coolant was down to 175= .  More interesting was that the oil temp had already dropped to 204 (= 20 degree drop).  Yeah, still higher than I like but a pretty big drop a matter of a few minutes. I do think oil takes longer t= o read delta T's than coolant...but I could be damned wrong on that.

 

Perhaps I just noticed the oil enough after a full power climb before it= had a chance to adapt and cool a bit??

 
Chris
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [f= lyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of Co= zyGirrrl@aol.com [CozyGirrrl@aol.com]
Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 11:52 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: First flight - Velocity N17010

Congratulations Chris! I knew you'd do it this morning. Please conside= r yourself hugged by both of us.
What wastegate are you using with that spring?
 
 
Chrissi & Randi
www.CozyGirrrl.com
CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware
Chairwomen, Sun-N-Fun Engine Workshop
 
In a message dated 6/9/2012 1:17:14 P.M. Central Daylight Time, cbarber@texasattorney.net writes:
Didn't notice MAP. Since I am concerned about detonation I have the we= akest spring installed. It is 1.5 lbs. 

Sent from my iPhone 4

On Jun 9, 2012, at 12:42 PM, "Kelly Troyer" <keltro@gmail.com> wrote:

YAA-HOO Chris !!.................Congrats and keep the reports coming.= ...........Be interested in if your oil temp was just
hi power takeoff temp that would come down with reduced power and more= airspeed............Did you notice what
MAP was (amount of boost) ??......................<:)
 
Kelly Troyer

On Sat, Jun 9, 2012 at 12:24 PM, Bobby J. Hughes= <bhughes@qnsi.net> w= rote:
Congrats Chris.  Be safe and keep the reports coming. Does your D= ynon have ant data logging capability?

Bobby

Sent from my iPad

On Jun 9, 2012, at 11:53 AM, "Chris Barber" <cbarber@texasattorney.net> wr= ote:

June 9, 2002 - A trailer pulled up in front of a simple but comf= ortable home in Houston. 

Lots of trails, tribulations blood, time, money, recreation, educatio= n, fun, friendships, anger, frustration, problem solving, sweat, pondering = etc....repeat and repeat again and again. 

Fast forward (it did go fast)

June 9, 2012 - Ellington Field -= A lone, very nervous man arrives at the airport shortly before 0900 hrs. P= ushes onto the ramp the contraption composed of fiberglass, metal et al and= the ingredients listed above. He sits down and writes a simple holographic (hand written) will and short note wi= th information to call "Mom" and work. Calls tower to relay inten= t via the phone.

Preflights the contraption. Gets in, goes though basic Checklist. Cra= nks up the engine, which fires right up at about 0920 hrs. Taxi to Juliet. = Calls tower to verify intent and to taxi to active, 35L. Taxis to Taxiway E= cho. Checks temps. Pushing 195 with OAT reading 95 degrees (geesh it is only about 0930 hrs). 

Cleared to take active and hold. Taxied out. Lined up castering nose = wheel down center stripe. Cleared to take off. Added power and engine smoot= hly ran up. Airspeed coming in. 30 kts...50 kts ....60 kts, approximate rot= ation speed. Lots of runway (9000 ft).....hold it....70 kts....72 kts... Slight pull on the yoke....AIRBORNE= !!! Leaped into ground effect. Screw this, pulled back on yoke and I am cli= mbing. Jiggled the yoke a bit to verify control authority= . 

Climbed to about 400 feet and turned right pattern to crosswind. The D= ynon altitude and airspeed seem to be working. That's reassuring. Pattern a= ltitude is only 600 feet and I was there already as I turned to downwind. L= eveled off and noticed the clouds were lower than reported and appeared on the ground. Also, noticed coolant= temps had dropped to 190....but oil temps were flashing at me and had reac= hed 225 (synthetic Royal Purple). Damn. Ok. Fly the airplane, the oil is no= t at not a critical level. , but let's just finish the pattern and land. I grabbed my phone while on downwi= nd and attempted to record some data but while I can hear the engine the vi= deo is  awful....uh, in my defense, I was a bit distracted and way mor= e concerned with flying. I called the tower and informed them I was coming in. I think they were looking out for= me since as I turned to base I noticed the fire department staged just off= the runways threshold

I noted I was a bit far out on down wind so I stared easing over to tu= rn base. Wow. I really overshot it as I blew by the runway and had to use f= ull right rudder to get back to the runway. I wish I had had more rudder. I= n hindsight I think I was not using much aileron as I was cognoscente that I had no idea of stall characterist= ics so I did not yet wish too strep a turn. I was able to get over the runw= ay and dump some altitude as I got over the numbers and pulled power. Crap,= I am fast. I am lined up and right on the numbers but at 95 kts. I come and touchdown and bounced. Pulled pow= er to idles and settled down easily but fast at 90 and rolled out and exite= d at Delta. The tower was clearing me back to the city hangars as I was exi= ting the active. I taxi back and noticed the oil temps had decreased but I don't recall how much, just noti= ced they were lower.

I got back to my hangar and popped the door and shut her down. The eng= ine went silent without any hissing or gushing. 

I called my mom. 

I am mowing informing the world. 

I did a walk around and did not see anything missing. I am about to pu= ll the cowl and check things out. 

I did notice I did not develop a slight hand shaking untill after I la= nded and exited the aircraft. ;-) Hey, how about that, it really= is an aircraft now. Ten years to the day following delivery. <= /div>

Thank you for your support. 

Christopher Barber, JD
Houston, Ellington Field (EFD)
Velocity N17010
Turbo Rotary 13b
RWS Re-drive and engine computers
Dynon Skyview
Mistral intake


Sent from my iPhone 4





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