X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from qmta08.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.80] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.3) with ESMTP id 5353220 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 09:00:46 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=76.96.62.80; envelope-from=gordon@acumen-ea.com Received: from omta08.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.12]) by qmta08.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id Ndxh1i0030Fqzac58e0A0p; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:00:10 +0000 Received: from GordonHPelite ([76.27.173.182]) by omta08.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id Ne0A1i00A3wUsn83Ue0A5K; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:00:10 +0000 From: "Gordon Alling" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Newbie to list Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 09:00:06 -0500 Message-ID: <003d01ccd520$5175b4c0$f4611e40$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003E_01CCD4F6.689FACC0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AczUBzJCP25FiHADRLOEcS9+n1ZuWQBFrKUw Content-Language: en-us This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003E_01CCD4F6.689FACC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ed, Thanks for the input and encouragement. I'd like to know more about the oil sump. 1. Is the curved blue tube that you mentioned a breather? Or, does it carry oil somewhere? 2. I assume you have holes at the base of the plate (replacing the oil pan) that allow oil to drain into the sump. Is that correct? 3. How much oil does your sump hold? 4. (I'm still quite ignorant) Where is the oil pump and how does it feed from the external sump? 5. (Different topic) Is your engine turbo charged? If so, which turbo? 6. Whose redrive do you use? What modifications did you have to make to accommodate the engine orientation? 7. Did you design your engine mount? Did you do any structural analysis on the mount? What g-loads did you use for design? What does your engine/redrive/prop weigh? 8. What prop are you using? Soooo many questions. Thanks in advance for the info. I'm in Fredericksburg, VA. Perhaps I could drop by Weddington to see your RV sometime? Gordon C. Alling, Jr., PE President acumen Engineering/Analysis, Inc. 540-786-2200 www.acumen-ea.com From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed Anderson Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 9:28 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Newbie to list Hi Gordon, Welcome to the Fly Rotary list. I am probably one of the few (I am only aware of two now flying) Plugs Up installations currently flying - there may be more, but unknown to me. I have flown my installation for close to 12 years with around 600 hours on the installation in my RV-6a (Tractor installation). There are no technical reasons that I have found precluding safely flying Plugs Up. In fact, there are some advantages. The biggest disadvantage is that almost all vendor products (such as motor mounts, gear boxes, etc) are designed for the automobile orientation - so some one-off parts and modifications may be necessary. Also, You will almost certainly have to cobber up your own oil sump - you can see my (red/blue) oil sump in the one photo which has a plate covering the engine "bottom" and a sump(red box) below the engine line. The curved blue tube (from top of sump into plate is aluminum tubing. Do NOT use anything other than metal tubing - hose, even stainless steel braided hose, can possible collapse under the suction when hot. Also any air leaks in that particular tube - will mean the ability of the oil pump to suck oil will be compromised. I know of one instance where a hose (instead of metal tube) was used and eventually collapse - starving engine bearings and causing engine to seize. Two advantages are 1: You can just about forget worrying about flooding the Plugs Up engine. The plugs are on top and exhaust ports on the bottom - so excess fuel quickly drains out and does not flood the sparkplug holes. 2: The fuel injectors in the block are not directly over the exhaust ports as they are in the auto installation. Gravity will cause any fuel leaks at the injectors to drop straight down missing the hot metal of the exhaust header (unless of course, you route your exhaust header under the injector area). I think the spark plugs are also easier to access - a minor point. My engine uses the engine bolt holes in the front iron housing (next to the front aluminum housing) intended for mounting air conditioning components to support the "rear" of the engine. Then I pick up the bolt holes in the rear iron housing (one next to flywheel) on each side to support the front. These pickups use a triangular plate of metal with the small end attached to the motor mount with one bolt and the base of it attached to the engine through two bolts which also hold the gearbox to the rear housing. Photo attached which may help explain it better. There are certainly other (and perhaps better ways), but this has worked for me. But, lots of information on this list will be applicable regardless of engine orientation. Best Regards Ed Edward L. Anderson Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC 305 Reefton Road Weddington, NC 28104 http://www.andersonee.com http://www.eicommander.com From: Gordon Alling Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 8:29 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Newbie to list Hi all, I'm new to the flyrotary (FR) list and am building a Defiant with two turbo 13Bs. I am looking at mounting the engines "plugs up" as described by Neil Kruiswyk and tried to contact him at the home.com address listed on the FR website. My e-mail keeps bouncing back. Does anyone have a current address for Neil? Beyond that, I would like to identify others that have mounted these engines sideways (plugs-up). How many hours do your projects have on these installations? What issues have you uncovered that may be related to the plugs-up orientation? Has anyone found (more than expected) difficulty cooling that may be related to air pockets in the cooling jacket? What about engine mounting? How do you grab the engine block? Have you looked at the stresses at the attach points? I'm also considering a constant speed prop. Tracy Crook advises me that his PSRU will accept only electrically adjustable props and I have identified IVO and MT as possible suppliers. Are there other electrically adjustable props in this power category? Are there other PSRUs that accept a hydraulically actuated prop adjustment? Thanks in advance for any advice you all can offer. Gordon C. Alling, Jr., PE President acumen Engineering/Analysis, Inc. 540-786-2200 www.acumen-ea.com ------=_NextPart_000_003E_01CCD4F6.689FACC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Ed,

 

Thanks for the input and = encouragement.  I’d like to know more about the oil = sump. 

1.       = Is the = curved blue tube that you mentioned a breather?  Or, does it carry = oil somewhere? 

2.       = I assume = you have holes at the base of the plate (replacing the oil pan) that = allow oil to drain into the sump.  Is that = correct?

3.       = How much = oil does your sump hold?

4.       = (I’m = still quite ignorant) Where is the oil pump and how does it feed from = the external sump?

5.       = (Different = topic)  Is your engine turbo charged?  If so, which = turbo?

6.       = Whose = redrive do you use?  What modifications did you have to make to = accommodate the engine orientation?

7.       = Did you = design your engine mount?  Did you do any structural analysis on = the mount?  What g-loads did you use for design?  What does = your engine/redrive/prop weigh?

8.       = What prop = are you using?

 

Soooo many = questions.  Thanks in advance for the info.  I’m in = Fredericksburg, VA.  Perhaps I could drop by Weddington to see your = RV sometime?

 

Gordon C. Alling, Jr., = PE

President

a= cumen Engineering/Analys= is, Inc.

 

540-786-2200

www.acumen-ea.com

 

From:= = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On = Behalf Of Ed Anderson
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 9:28 = AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re: Newbie to list

 

Hi = Gordon,

 

Welcome to = the Fly Rotary list.  I am probably one of the few (I am only aware = of two now flying) Plugs Up installations currently flying - there may = be more, but unknown to me.  I have flown my installation for close = to 12 years with around 600 hours on the installation in my RV-6a = (Tractor installation).

 

There are no = technical reasons that I have found precluding safely flying Plugs = Up.  In fact, there are some advantages.  The biggest = disadvantage is that almost all vendor products (such as motor mounts, = gear boxes, etc) are designed for the automobile orientation - so some = one-off parts and modifications may be necessary. 

 

Also, You = will almost certainly have to cobber up your own oil sump - you can see = my (red/blue) oil sump in the one photo which has a plate covering the = engine "bottom" and a sump(red box) below the engine = line.  The curved blue tube (from top of sump into plate is = aluminum tubing.  Do NOT use anything other than metal tubing - = hose, even stainless steel braided hose, can possible collapse under the = suction when hot.  Also any air leaks in that particular tube - = will mean the ability of the oil pump to suck oil will be = compromised.   I know of one instance where a hose (instead of = metal tube) was used and eventually collapse - starving engine bearings = and causing engine to seize.  

 

Two = advantages are 1: You can just about forget worrying about flooding the = Plugs Up engine.  The plugs are on top and exhaust ports on the = bottom - so excess fuel quickly drains out and does not flood the = sparkplug holes.  2:  The fuel injectors in the block are not = directly over the exhaust ports as they are in the auto = installation.  Gravity will cause any fuel leaks at the injectors = to drop straight down missing the hot metal of the exhaust header = (unless of course, you route your exhaust header under the injector = area).  I think the spark plugs are also easier to access - a minor = point.

 

My engine = uses the engine bolt holes in the front iron housing (next to the front = aluminum  housing) intended for mounting air conditioning = components to support the "rear" of the engine.  Then I = pick up the bolt holes in the rear iron housing (one next to flywheel) = on each side to support the front. These pickups use a triangular = plate of metal with the small end attached to the motor mount with = one bolt and the base of it attached to the engine through two = bolts which  also hold the gearbox to the rear housing.  =  Photo attached which may help explain it better.  There are = certainly other (and perhaps better ways), but this has worked for = me.

 

But, lots of = information on this list will be applicable regardless of engine = orientation.

 

Best = Regards

 

Ed

 

Edward L. = Anderson
Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC
305 Reefton = Road
Weddington, NC 28104
http://www.andersonee.com
http://www.eicommander.com=

 

 

 <= /o:p>

From:= = Gordon Alling =

Sent:= = Sunday, January 15, 2012 8:29 AM

Subject: = [FlyRotary] Newbie to = list

 

Hi all,

 

I’m = new to the flyrotary (FR) list and am building a Defiant with two turbo = 13Bs.  I am looking at mounting the engines “plugs up” = as described by Neil Kruiswyk and tried to contact him at the home.com = address listed on the FR website.  My e-mail keeps bouncing back. =  Does anyone have a current address for Neil?

 

Beyond that, = I would like to identify others that have mounted these engines sideways = (plugs-up).  How many hours do your projects have on these = installations?  What issues have you uncovered that may be related = to the plugs-up orientation?  Has anyone found (more than expected) = difficulty cooling that may be related to air pockets in the cooling = jacket?

 

What about engine mounting?  How do you grab the = engine block?  Have you looked at the stresses at the attach = points?

 

I’m also considering a constant speed = prop.  Tracy Crook advises me that his PSRU will accept only = electrically adjustable props and I have identified IVO and MT as = possible suppliers.  Are there other electrically adjustable props = in this power category?  Are there other PSRUs that accept a = hydraulically actuated prop adjustment?

 

Thanks in = advance for any advice you all can offer.

 

Gordon C. = Alling, Jr., PE

President

a= cumen Engineering/Analysis, = Inc.

 

540-786-2200

www.acumen-ea.com

 

------=_NextPart_000_003E_01CCD4F6.689FACC0--