X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.123] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.1) with ESMTP id 5112781 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 03 Sep 2011 10:19:08 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.123; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Return-Path: X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=clOQl2Kon9ihL0vqe5S6shCOWnQ8eDPHG/StQ1omz74= c=1 sm=0 a=ToFzvHwIqmwA:10 a=SC71y0a/4S6V9vjVxUojGA==:17 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=W_ZKl9HzAAAA:20 a=1plLpn8R8_hlRFELjEQA:9 a=vQn7PUysHlNGtUtKxUEA:7 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=2LVDGGuTAuRCInKn:21 a=s-e0ouoLP_JhK1fv:21 a=UKPAHat8AAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=nxKdmrfOm1hBHtrZqpkA:9 a=rWDQHtoJvQg1mb59QOoA:7 a=7god_763jbgA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=SC71y0a/4S6V9vjVxUojGA==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 174.110.175.135 Received: from [174.110.175.135] ([174.110.175.135:53351] helo=EdPC) by cdptpa-oedge01.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id A9/6A-15370-737326E4; Sat, 03 Sep 2011 14:18:32 +0000 Message-ID: <39CCE0534537424C9CA664A3C8D5A5AA@EdPC> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: The good news and the bad news...... Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2011 10:18:22 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0035_01CC6A22.CF2A25E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01CC6A22.CF2A25E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We still don't know (and may never),the causes, but Sam's and Bills = incidents based on initial information would appear to me to be two = different causes.=20 Sam's engine kept running - although sputtering and producing no power = - this to me sounds like a fuel related problem (possibly vapor lock, = possibly something else - could be muffler blockage). Bill's on the = other hand quit suddenly and without any warning - that to me sounds = more like an electrical problem - either the firing pulses to the = injector stopped or the spark stopped. =20 If I were Bill, I would use the EC2's diagnostic modes to check out each = circuit - if one doesn't check out then that is probably the answer. If = both check OK then more head scratching. Ed From: Bobby J. Hughes=20 Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 9:43 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The good news and the bad news...... Bill, I'm sorry to here about the damage but glad you weren't injured. I don't = know at what percentage of exhaust blockage the engine would stop = running. Also no reports on the condition of Sam's HP2 muffler. Three = aircraft experiencing very similar problems this year is too many. If = you have leading / trailing plugs and primary / secondary injectors on = separate power feeds then it should have kept running. That leaves fuel = delivery (vapor lock), CAS circuit, Controller power, A side computer = issue or muffler? I believe Sam did switch controllers during his = incident. I didn't and had plenty of time to do so. It's now the second = item in my emergency flow.=20 One common item can be eliminated be removing any muffler that has = packing. Especially Hushpower 2 since they are common to all three = incidents. I'm assuming Sam's muffler also had loose internals.=20 Bobby Sent from my iPad On Sep 2, 2011, at 11:54 PM, "Bill Eslick" wrote: I have been holding up reporting this until all the facts are in, but = that might never happen, so here we go. Good news: No injuries. =20 Bad news: I have some work to do. Photos at: http://www.tiny9.com/u/2101 On August 16th at 10 AM, I lined up for takeoff at my home airport = (3600' paved) into a 5 knot headwind. I had just finished changing the = oil and filter and plugs. Run-up was fine, so off I went. = Approximately mid-field, and a couple of hundred feet in the air, it = suddenly and without any warning became very silent. Hit the big switch which puts direct battery power to everything = engine, but no noise. No more time. At this point flying the machine = becomes THE priority. Dropped the nose and was amazed to see a little = bit of runway under the nose! I had fully expected to land in trees, = houses or the river, so I dove what seemed like straight down to capture = as much runway as possible while (somehow) holding the electric flap = switch long enough to get full flaps (noticed this later). Pulled = probably my best round-out ever - no bounce. Brakes to max and tail up = for weight. I think my sub-concious put it all the way on the nose to = try to prevent going through the fence and down the hill. Wheel skid = starts about 200 feet from the stopping point. Skid marks from the = wheel pants, cowling and prop run about the last 50 feet. It stopped = nose down just off the end. The tail was still over pavement. Pushed = the slider canopy UPHILL, stepped out and down. Noticed that I was not = even scared by the whole event. Interesting. Never even considered = trying to turn around. Pre-thinking that non-option apparently paid = off. =20 More good news. No FAA or NTSB as it was a non-reportable incident. = Didn't even bend the gear legs. Also, my neighbor crashed in a = Challenger about 10 minutes earlier at the city airport about 10 miles = away. The police and rescue types were headed that way (they had = injuries) and were not interested in my minor mishap. As for the engine. When we got it back to the hangar, the prop would = turn only haltingly. You could feel grinding going on inside. First = try at turning had it come up hard and stop. More fooling with it and = it gradually came looser and would turn. Really looked like something = came loose in there. Pulled a plug from each rotor and did a = compression test. Rotor 1 was 80-80-80. Rotor 2 was 2-2-2. More proof = that something had come loose. With that evidence, the insurance = company allowed me to remove the engine for inspection. What I found = was a pile of ground up ceramic junk. All the seals were still fine. = Lots of time went in to finding where that stuff came from. Went = through every inch of the induction system. Finally Jason Hutchison (my = other on-airport rotary guy) broke the code. While the RV was standing = on it's nose, this crap from my burned-out Hushpower II ran back up the = manifold and in the exhaust port. That is what was grinding. Crap. = Now the entire thing is off the firewall including the engine mount. = All the wiring is disconnected (did not find anything loose or missing). = I spent the morning looking under the panel for any loose or broken = wiring, but found none. When I get the EC-2 out, Jason wants to plug it = into his plane and we'll do the plugs and injectors test. If that = checks out, Tracy, it is coming to you for a good look. I don't know = what else to check. The engine quit just like somebody reached over and = turned off the ignition. No stumble, no hiccup, just instant silence. = I honestly do not know if the prop was turning or not. I suspect not, = due to the silence and the fact that one blade is untouched. As you can see from the photos, there was something going on with = Rotor 1. Wear is apparent down stream from the plug holes and all 3 = apex seals are starting to chip in the center. There is quite a lot of = carbon also on the rotors after 170 hours. Going forward, I have decided to look at resale value for if/when my = RV-12 days arrive. This means putting a (gasp) IO-360 on it. The = rotary has given me a safe 10-year run (til now, of course), so I have = no regrets, but this is an opportunity to make some changes, and parts = are already on the way. I will still be hanging out at the engine tent = at S-n-F and wherever else gatherings happen. Hope to be flying by the = first of next year.... I'm sure some of you will have suggestions about what might have gone = wrong, and I welcome any kind of speculation, but bear in mind I am just = looking at a pile of parts and wires at this point. Both fuel pumps = were on, tanks were over half full, crank angle sensor worked fine. Guess it's obvious that I now have a RD-1A, EC-2, EFI Monitor (Ed's), = Felix 68/72 and Props Inc 68/72 wood props and LOTS of engine parts (my = whole 14-year stash) available! And priced to sell! Bill Eslick RV-6 13B/NA EC-2 RD-1A 750 Hours ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01CC6A22.CF2A25E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
We still don't know (and may never),the causes, =  but=20 Sam's and Bills incidents based on initial information would appear to = me to be=20 two different causes. 
 
 Sam's engine kept running - although = sputtering=20 and producing no power - this to me sounds like a fuel related problem = (possibly=20 vapor lock, possibly something else - could be muffler blockage).  = Bill's=20 on the other hand quit suddenly and without any warning - that to me = sounds more=20 like an electrical problem - either the firing pulses to the injector = stopped or=20 the spark stopped. 
 
If I were Bill, I would use the EC2's diagnostic = modes to=20 check out each circuit - if one doesn't check out then that is probably = the=20 answer.  If both check OK then  more head = scratching.
 
Ed

Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 9:43 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The good news and the bad=20 news......

Bill,

I'm sorry to here about the damage but glad you weren't injured. I = don't=20 know at what percentage of exhaust blockage the engine would stop = running. Also=20 no reports on the condition of Sam's HP2 muffler. Three aircraft = experiencing=20 very similar problems this year is too many. If you have  leading / = trailing plugs and primary / secondary injectors on separate power feeds = then it=20 should have kept running. That leaves fuel delivery (vapor lock), CAS = circuit,=20 Controller power, A side computer issue or muffler? I believe Sam did = switch=20 controllers during his incident. I didn't and had plenty of time to do = so. It's=20 now the second item in my emergency flow. 

One common item can be eliminated be removing any muffler that has = packing.=20 Especially Hushpower 2 since they are common to all three incidents. I'm = assuming Sam's muffler also had loose internals. 

Bobby






Sent from my iPad

On Sep 2, 2011, at 11:54 PM, "Bill Eslick" <wgeslick@gmail.com> = wrote:

I = have been=20 holding up reporting this until all the facts are in, but that might = never=20 happen, so here we go.

Good news:  No = injuries. =20

Bad news:  I have some work to do.

Photos = at: =20 http://www.tiny9.com/u/2101<= /STRONG>

On August 16th at = 10 AM, I=20 lined up for takeoff at my home airport (3600' paved) into a 5 knot=20 headwind.  I had just finished changing the oil and filter and=20 plugs.  Run-up was fine, so off I went.  Approximately = mid-field,=20 and a couple of hundred feet in the air, it suddenly and without any = warning=20 became very silent.

Hit the big switch which puts direct = battery power=20 to everything engine, but no noise.  No more time.  At this = point=20 flying the machine becomes THE priority.  Dropped the nose and = was amazed=20 to see a little bit of runway under the nose!  I had fully = expected to=20 land in trees, houses or the river, so I dove what seemed like = straight down=20 to capture as much runway as possible while (somehow) holding the = electric=20 flap switch long enough to get full flaps (noticed this later).  = Pulled=20 probably my best round-out ever - no bounce.  Brakes to max and = tail up=20 for weight.  I think my sub-concious put it all the way on the = nose to=20 try to prevent going through the fence and down the hill.  Wheel = skid=20 starts about 200 feet from the stopping point.  Skid marks from = the wheel=20 pants, cowling and prop run about the last 50 feet.  It stopped = nose down=20 just off the end.  The tail was still over pavement.  Pushed = the=20 slider canopy UPHILL, stepped out and down.  Noticed that I was = not even=20 scared by the whole event.  Interesting.  Never even = considered=20 trying to turn around.  Pre-thinking that non-option apparently = paid=20 off. 

More good news.  No FAA or NTSB as it was a=20 non-reportable incident.  Didn't even bend the gear legs.  = Also, my=20 neighbor crashed in a Challenger about 10 minutes earlier at the city = airport=20 about 10 miles away.  The police and rescue types were headed = that way=20 (they had injuries) and were not interested in my minor = mishap.

As for=20 the engine.  When we got it back to the hangar, the prop would = turn only=20 haltingly.  You could feel grinding going on inside.  First = try at=20 turning had it come up hard and stop.  More fooling with it and = it=20 gradually came looser and would turn.  Really looked like = something came=20 loose in there.  Pulled a plug from each rotor and did a = compression=20 test.  Rotor 1 was 80-80-80.  Rotor 2 was 2-2-2.  More = proof=20 that something had come loose.  With that evidence, the insurance = company=20 allowed me to remove the engine for inspection.  What I found was = a pile=20 of ground up ceramic junk.  All the seals were still fine.  = Lots of=20 time went in to finding where that stuff came from.  Went through = every=20 inch of the induction system.  Finally Jason Hutchison (my other=20 on-airport rotary guy) broke the code.  While the RV was standing = on it's=20 nose, this crap from my burned-out Hushpower II ran back up the = manifold and=20 in the exhaust port.  That is what was grinding.  = Crap.  Now=20 the entire thing is off the firewall including the engine mount.  = All the=20 wiring is disconnected (did not find anything loose or missing).  = I spent=20 the morning looking under the panel for any loose or broken wiring, = but found=20 none.  When I get the EC-2 out, Jason wants to plug it into his = plane and=20 we'll do the plugs and injectors test.  If that checks out, = Tracy, it is=20 coming to you for a good look.  I don't know what else to = check. =20 The engine quit just like somebody reached over and turned off the=20 ignition.  No stumble, no hiccup, just instant silence.  I = honestly=20 do not know if the prop was turning or not.  I suspect not, due = to the=20 silence and the fact that one blade is untouched.

As you can = see from=20 the photos, there was something going on with Rotor 1.  Wear is = apparent=20 down stream from the plug holes and all 3 apex seals are starting to = chip in=20 the center.  There is quite a lot of carbon also on the rotors = after 170=20 hours.

Going forward, I have decided to look at resale value = for=20 if/when my RV-12 days arrive.  This means putting a (gasp) IO-360 = on=20 it.  The rotary has given me a safe 10-year run (til now, of = course), so=20 I have no regrets, but this is an opportunity to make some changes, = and parts=20 are already on the way.  I will still be hanging out at the = engine tent=20 at S-n-F and wherever else gatherings happen.  Hope to be flying = by the=20 first of next year....

I'm sure some of you will have = suggestions about=20 what might have gone wrong, and I welcome any kind of speculation, but = bear in=20 mind I am just looking at a pile of parts and wires at this = point.  Both=20 fuel pumps were on, tanks were over half full, crank angle sensor = worked=20 fine.

Guess it's obvious that I now have a RD-1A, EC-2, EFI = Monitor=20 (Ed's),  Felix 68/72 and Props Inc 68/72 wood props and LOTS of = engine=20 parts (my whole 14-year stash) available!  And priced to = sell!

Bill Eslick
RV-6 13B/NA EC-2 RD-1A
750=20 = Hours



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