X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from nm5-vm0.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com ([98.139.44.112] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.0) with SMTP id 5067193 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 23:43:13 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.139.44.112; envelope-from=keltro@att.net Received: from [98.139.44.101] by nm5.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Jul 2011 03:42:39 -0000 Received: from [98.139.44.68] by tm6.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Jul 2011 03:42:39 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1005.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Jul 2011 03:42:39 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 708496.96909.bm@omp1005.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 8029 invoked by uid 60001); 29 Jul 2011 03:42:39 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024; t=1311910959; bh=ZdINpzaQy2DQ+RjiPeSjxQWI6wQjjt6/fMymNu5JwRw=; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=DJuH0mp7S1Uc0VGGiyesXbyvd6bZqgT9J2CoRvBpl2BL+IdBETHlxLyLz3cK9Kfyc2Dm2zdadhZuEitF3Lnz2Nq9X/zRDJ5Pt9HGCMqqAnI03kounAXu1o+xSeyj+HtrSNRHpfo59lq2wLz6PHxsEW24Srx0gqjO81COwJtAb/M= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=att.net; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=4A086/lQdLu4IgtL5QRKYg1tyRTtd/k1ngq2NZN5krRQ3oHqbFSifjKGcOK6+M+000SM22Y6HYvxLgp3Q9JaBuaEj8NY2XKQoRN8dYTX760xgTwP7lj/TtwhkK19xACtoz+9+2OITUzc3SrYEU1Ajyg9J/Z+i9nMhEKnC7a3fk8=; X-YMail-OSG: VN6INY0VM1l3W9pIE2ppa_qpS9GBakM67Czmto5QVmAZsNU c_yE.Tp6hYJu4IAAhmmdY7r5ZfHKhfFT6QtC.EdqNfQQfBK56ouXlLA.gH8O jolPK99yU.3VK2bwMKx4M08ZCmloRPyiK8ev3WLWOkJFfPhQJvhjQ8WB7fUW 9wj7HE.EnQB4LFMHYZsiCvtzIQq3EfzWYql_7OpOleBL8mtMn_KVWliJknUS ipLEWfrpIrR37tNHsNt9BSWH_awHgilcNXzbxb6gtaeKp_nmZN8bkbXGDlAF 7uM7l80IzSca5XtAvTGxEZyrAi602_9G4oMRe5a0RWDN9UqL_Rjrs7z0aFDh Js7yrFERhG5PQv9J1 Received: from [208.114.39.18] by web83903.mail.sp1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 20:42:39 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.112.310352 References: Message-ID: <1311910959.1050.YahooMailNeo@web83903.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 20:42:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Kelly Troyer Reply-To: Kelly Troyer Subject: Re: Coolant Restrictor Plate To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1024730958-1311910959=:1050" --0-1024730958-1311910959=:1050 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lynn,=0A=C2=A0=0A=C2=A0=C2=A0 What would a Wild Axx Guess be for a restrict= or for our 5000 to 7000 rpm range be =0Ain your opinion (subject to=C2=A0ea= ch individual users=C2=A0testing of course) whether it be in the=0Aform of = a smaller diameter return hose or a metal disc ??.................=0A=0AKel= ly Troyer=0A"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)=0A"13B ROTARY"_ Engine=0A"RWS"_RD= 1C/EC2/EM2=0A"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=0A"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo= =0A=0AFrom: "Lehanover@aol.com" =0ATo: Rotary motors in = aircraft =0ASent: Thursday, July 28, 2011 10:0= 6 PM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: Coolant Restrictor Plate=0A=0A=0AThere is a= wide gulf between the calculated heat rejection of any particular system a= nd the actual performance of that system in real life.=0AJust ask Mistral. = Or anyone else who tried to cool a rotary. As in any car, the water pump is= sufficient to cool the car in Death Valley on the hottest day of the year,= at idle. So, when we spin up the engine to 5,500 RPM and the pump is spinn= ing 7,000 RPM we can pump a good sized stream of water over a two story bui= lding. Good to know, but how about a radiator. Not quite as good an outcome= . The radiator sharp edged tubes stick up into the manifold and defy fluid = flow through them. Some racing radiators are filled with epoxy right to the= tips of the tubes to provide a very smooth transition into the tubes and f= low is profoundly improved. =0A=0ASo the formula says in part that more flo= w means more (Better)=C2=A0 cooling, and this is accurate. But when you see= that the radiator is the biggest restriction in the coolant loop you might= guess that a low pressure area could develop between the inside of the rad= iator and the water pump. And in every case it dose. So now you notice that= all lower (suction side) radiator hoses have a big spring inside to preven= t the hose from collapsing. So, the suction side of the pump can pull quite= a low pressure on that hose, correct? Even with a 22 pound pressure cap an= d a really big free flowing radiator. There is never more than 14.7 pounds = available to crush that hose, so the pressure inside the hose must be lower= than that by a good margin. And if the pressure inside the hose is that lo= w, what is the pressure inside the cool side radiator manifold? Notice in t= he olden days that the radiator died from the bottom tube ends (up and down= radiators) seem to rot away and leaks at the bottom killed the radiator. =0A=0ANo, it was cavitation. = =0A=0AAlso cavitation can kill a pump quickly. It eats away the pump vanes = like acid. Notice that the top hoses are smaller than the bottom hoses?=0A= =0ACould drag increasing at the square of velocity be performing the functi= on of a..........dare I say restrictor? =C2=A0If the top hose is long enoug= h it has that effect. Now in the lab and in the drawings all of that fluid = is incompressible. And the surface of the tubes is uniformly exposed to the= fluid, so we predict that at thus and so, a flow rate we expect rejection = value X. But we seem to not achieve value X in actual practice.=C2=A0Becaus= e, while the fluid is very nearly incompressible the air bubbles in the flu= id are easily compressed, and thus allow for volume changes, and then for b= oth high and low pressure to exist in the same closed system.=0A=0ARemoving= the radiator as the biggest restriction in the circuit just about eliminat= es suction side cavitation. So I installed a restrictor in the water outlet= of 5/8" diameter. It is welded in place. It never changes. Been doing it s= ince 1980. Have yet to overheat a rotary. Have never lost a water pump or r= adiator. =0A=0AI would not use that small a restrictor for 5,500 RPM. Proba= bly way too small. My engines were used between 7,500 and 9,600 RPM. This w= ith the small crank drive pulley and the stock water pump pulley. =0A=0AWha= t I have deduced from this may be completely wrong. But, it does work for m= e. Or, perhaps my system is so overly large it is just tolerating my folly.= =C2=A0=0A=0ALynn E. Hanover=0A=0A=0A=0AIn a message dated 7/28/2011 10:51:2= 3 A.M. Paraguay Standard Time, eanderson@carolina.rr.com writes:=0AI saw Ly= nn=E2=80=99s coolant diagram with a restrictor plate in it=C2=A0 =E2=80=A6= =C2=A0 you guys with evaporator cores and 1=E2=80=9D coolant hoses have a 1= =E2=80=9D restriction, this based on Mazda=E2=80=99s design of 1.5=E2=80=9D= inlet/outlet on the stock water pump and the stock design includes a therm= ostat.=C2=A0 With all of that as a background (never had a thermostat), I d= ecided to try a restrictor plate =C2=A0in my coolant system, using a 0.75= =E2=80=9D hole in a plate at the water pump outlet into my 1.5=E2=80=9D rad= iator hoses.=C2=A0 I can say that it doesn't do any harm and may have actua= lly provided about 5% improvement =E2=80=A6 more testing to follow. --0-1024730958-1311910959=:1050 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lynn,
 
   What wo= uld a Wild Axx Guess be for a restrictor for our 5000 to 7000 rpm range be =
in your opinion (sub= ject to each individual users testing of course) whether it be in= the
form of a smaller di= ameter return hose or a metal disc ??.................
 
Kelly Troyer
"DYKE DELTA JD2" (Eventually)
"13B ROTARY"_ Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"MISTRAL"_Backplate/Oil = Manifold
"TURBONETICS"_TO4E50 Turbo

From:= "Lehanover@aol.com" <Lehanover@aol.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrota= ry@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2011 10:06 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Coolant Restrictor Plate

There is a wide gulf between the calculated heat rejection of any part= icular system and the actual performance of that system in real life.
Just ask Mistral. Or anyone else who tried to cool a rotary. As in any= car, the water pump is sufficient to cool the car in Death Valley on the h= ottest day of the year, at idle. So, when we spin up the engine to 5,500 RP= M and the pump is spinning 7,000 RPM we can pump a good sized stream of wat= er over a two story building. Good to know, but how about a radiator. Not q= uite as good an outcome. The radiator sharp edged tubes stick up into the m= anifold and defy fluid flow through them. Some racing radiators are filled = with epoxy right to the tips of the tubes to provide a very smooth transiti= on into the tubes and flow is profoundly improved.
 
So the formula says in part that more flow means more (Better)  c= ooling, and this is accurate. But when you see that the radiator is the big= gest restriction in the coolant loop you might guess that a low pressure ar= ea could develop between the inside of the radiator and the water pump. And= in every case it dose. So now you notice that all lower (suction side) rad= iator hoses have a big spring inside to prevent the hose from collapsing. S= o, the suction side of the pump can pull quite a low pressure on that hose,= correct? Even with a 22 pound pressure cap and a really big free flowing r= adiator. There is never more than 14.7 pounds available to crush that hose,= so the pressure inside the hose must be lower than that by a good margin. = And if the pressure inside the hose is that low, what is the pressure insid= e the cool side radiator manifold? Notice in the olden days that the radiat= or died from the bottom tube ends (up and down radiators) seem to rot away and leaks at the bottom killed the radiator.
 
No, it was cavitation.
 
Also cavitation can kill a pump quickly. It eats away the pump vanes l= ike acid. Notice that the top hoses are smaller than the bottom hoses?
 
Could drag increasing at the square of velocity be performing the func= tion of a..........dare I say restrictor?  If the top hose is long eno= ugh it has that effect. Now in the lab and in the drawings all of that flui= d is incompressible. And the surface of the tubes is uniformly exposed to t= he fluid, so we predict that at thus and so, a flow rate we expect rejectio= n value X. But we seem to not achieve value X in actual practice. Beca= use, while the fluid is very nearly incompressible the air bubbles in the f= luid are easily compressed, and thus allow for volume changes, and then for= both high and low pressure to exist in the same closed system.
 
Removing the radiator as the biggest restriction in the circuit just a= bout eliminates suction side cavitation. So I installed a restrictor in the= water outlet of 5/8" diameter. It is welded in place. It never changes. Be= en doing it since 1980. Have yet to overheat a rotary. Have never lost a wa= ter pump or radiator.
 
I would not use that small a restrictor for 5,500 RPM. Probably way to= o small. My engines were used between 7,500 and 9,600 RPM. This with the sm= all crank drive pulley and the stock water pump pulley.
 
What I have deduced from this may be completely wrong. But, it does wo= rk for me. Or, perhaps my system is so overly large it is just tolerating m= y folly. 
 
Lynn E. Hanover
 
 
 
In a message dated 7/28/2011 10:51:23 A.M. Paraguay Standard Time, ean= derson@carolina.rr.com writes:
I saw Lynn=E2=80=99s coolant diagram wi= th a restrictor plate in it  =E2=80=A6  you guys with evaporator = cores and 1=E2=80=9D coolant hoses have a 1=E2=80=9D restriction, this base= d on Mazda=E2=80=99s design of 1.5=E2=80=9D inlet/outlet on the stock water= pump and the stock design includes a thermostat.  With all of that as= a background (never had a thermostat), I decided to try a restrictor plate=  in my coolant system, using a 0.75=E2=80=9D hole in a plate at the w= ater pump outlet into my 1.5=E2=80=9D radiator hoses.  I can say that = it doesn't do any harm and may have actually provided about 5% improvement = =E2=80=A6 more testing to follow.


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